seelah shouldn't be a paladin

[suprpiwi]

why the ♥♥♥♥ is she a paladin, she drinks, never answers in a lawful manner, rather chaotic good. what a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ of a paladin which means her powers would fall off

[jedi7000nathan/sevenbillionjedi]

Origineel geplaatst door Sassy Piplup:

She makes more sense personality and action-wise as a Paladin of Sarenrae, but is still very much a paladin

On that I 100% agree. Or of Cayden Calien if he could have Paladins

[Erei]

Origineel geplaatst door jedi7000nathan/sevenbillionjedi:

Origineel geplaatst door Sassy Piplup:

She makes more sense personality and action-wise as a Paladin of Sarenrae, but is still very much a paladin

On that I 100% agree. Or of Cayden Calien if he could have Paladins

I disagree. Sarenrae is all about redemption and smiting the one that refuse redemption. Iomedae is all about justice and honor. All good deity have redemption in their portfolio, sarenrae (and Shelyn) moreso.

Seelah was a criminal who decided to upheld justice and redeem herself. It makes sense she follow Iomedae. She is paying for her crime (as she see it herself) and help others to do the same (like Curl).
Plus the paladin that died and put her on this path was a Iomedae paladin.

She is about giving justice. She is conflicted about how to work that out tho. Should justice be blind or more nuanced ?

[Wyvernclaw Jack]

I just respect her into a freebooter or warpriest with that shield archetype so she goes mace+shield TWF.

[GrandMajora]

Origineel geplaatst door Sassy Piplup:

She makes more sense personality and action-wise as a Paladin of Sarenrae, but is still very much a paladin

I'll admit, I'm not as knowledgeable about Pathfinder lore as I would like to be. But the general consensus I got from the villains of the story, is that Iomedae is one of the most pompous and arrogant deities in Golarion.

Maybe she'd be more fitting as a Paladin of Cayden?

Edicts: Drink, Aid the Oppressed, Seek Glory and Adventure.

[pckirk]

Origineel geplaatst door GrandMajora:

Maybe she'd be more fitting as a Paladin of Cayden?

Edicts: Drink, Aid the Oppressed, Seek Glory and Adventure.

Like this! lol

[Niklasbane(PM)]

I always thought she, as a person, was the textbook definition of a paladin or cleric of Sarenrae much moreso than of Iomadae.
The "issue" with her being classified as a "Paladin of Iomadae" in my opinion is that she always seems to choose forgiveness and redemption over "Justice" in any given circumstance. I get the distinct impression that she will always choose to forgive someone over metting out justice if she can find even the slightest modicum of justification to do so, which is quite flimsy for a paladin of justice but perfectly on-brand for a cleric or paladin of Sarenrae.
...Then there's that one time she talks back to Iomadae to her face and advices the player to go against her Goddess' direct will...

[Vertigo]

Origineel geplaatst door Niklasbane(PM):

I always thought she, as a person, was the textbook definition of a paladin or cleric of Sarenrae much moreso than of Iomadae.
The "issue" with her being classified as a "Paladin of Iomadae" in my opinion is that she always seems to choose forgiveness and redemption over "Justice" in any given circumstance. I get the distinct impression that she will always choose to forgive someone over metting out justice if she can find even the slightest modicum of justification to do so, which is quite flimsy for a paladin of justice but perfectly on-brand for a cleric or paladin of Sarenrae.

I feel that it goes back to this part of her creed:
- I will never abandon a companion, though I will honor sacrifice freely given.
- I will guard the honor of my fellows, both thought and deed, and I will have faith in them.
- When in doubt, I may force my enemies to surrender, but I am responsible for their lives.

It's also worth remembering that she is Paizo's textbook paladin. I think the issue that players have is that Owlcat used some liberties when writing her in the game (which to some embody other gods more).

[ShivaX]

Origineel geplaatst door Drake:

Origineel geplaatst door Razer:

As far as Iomedaes oaths this one applies:
"I will be temperate in my actions and moderate in my behavior."

It doesn't say do not drink, but I think we can safely state that getting drunk isn't moderation.

Seelah never gets wasted to the point where she can't do her job though, she's has a good constitution.
And she always puts duty first when the situation demands it.

There is only one character in the game that has an alignment issue and that greybor. He should outright be neutral evil, the guy is a professional assassin, follows norgorber, only cares about his reputation and gold and the devs even expanded the assassin prestige class req to neutral just so that we could multiclass him.
And the only reason he's neutral is because otherwise there would have been to much evil chars and it would break the NPC balance gameplay wise (not enough neutral chars).

This right here.

Dude's dream job is an assassin... in the freaking Abyss!
But sure he's "not evil" cause he isn't cruel all the time or something. Dude is the definition of Neutral Evil.

[splaniden]

Origineel geplaatst door Vertigo:

Origineel geplaatst door Niklasbane(PM):

I always thought she, as a person, was the textbook definition of a paladin or cleric of Sarenrae much moreso than of Iomadae.
The "issue" with her being classified as a "Paladin of Iomadae" in my opinion is that she always seems to choose forgiveness and redemption over "Justice" in any given circumstance. I get the distinct impression that she will always choose to forgive someone over metting out justice if she can find even the slightest modicum of justification to do so, which is quite flimsy for a paladin of justice but perfectly on-brand for a cleric or paladin of Sarenrae.

I feel that it goes back to this part of her creed:
- I will never abandon a companion, though I will honor sacrifice freely given.
- I will guard the honor of my fellows, both thought and deed, and I will have faith in them.
- When in doubt, I may force my enemies to surrender, but I am responsible for their lives.

It's also worth remembering that she is Paizo's textbook paladin. I think the issue that players have is that Owlcat used some liberties when writing her in the game (which to some embody other gods more).

I'm not a Pathfinder guru. I don't know any lore outside of what was presented by this game, and even that is sketchy, but:

Personally, I think my overall impression of Owlcat's "Seelah as a Paladin" would change if there was even one little discussion between her and the MC (or anybody) after Camellia.
At least in my play-through, they'd been companions for 4+ Acts, Camellia dropped off the face of the earth, and _nobody even noticed_. But whatever.

[Razer]

Origineel geplaatst door splaniden:

Origineel geplaatst door Vertigo:

I feel that it goes back to this part of her creed:
- I will never abandon a companion, though I will honor sacrifice freely given.
- I will guard the honor of my fellows, both thought and deed, and I will have faith in them.
- When in doubt, I may force my enemies to surrender, but I am responsible for their lives.

It's also worth remembering that she is Paizo's textbook paladin. I think the issue that players have is that Owlcat used some liberties when writing her in the game (which to some embody other gods more).

Personally, I think my overall impression of Owlcat's "Seelah as a Paladin" would change if there was even one little discussion between her and the MC (or anybody) after Camellia.
At least in my play-through, they'd been companions for 4+ Acts, Camellia dropped off the face of the earth, and _nobody even noticed_. But whatever.

There's very little response from Seelah if you go against her tenets. You can murder who ever you like and she's like: For Iomedae!

[Vertigo]

Origineel geplaatst door splaniden:

Personally, I think my overall impression of Owlcat's "Seelah as a Paladin" would change if there was even one little discussion between her and the MC (or anybody) after Camellia.
At least in my play-through, they'd been companions for 4+ Acts, Camellia dropped off the face of the earth, and _nobody even noticed_. But whatever.

Origineel geplaatst door Razer:

There's very little response from Seelah if you go against her tenets. You can murder who ever you like and she's like: For Iomedae!

I think that is something the writing did lack. Horgus is of course upset when you talk to him, but I feel NPCs as a whole tend to not notice when other characters die or disappear. In Kingmaker, I remember Ekundayo confronting me because I didn't take him when I spared the trolls. Stuff like that makes the game world feel more alive.

[Razer]

Origineel geplaatst door Vertigo:

Origineel geplaatst door splaniden:

Personally, I think my overall impression of Owlcat's "Seelah as a Paladin" would change if there was even one little discussion between her and the MC (or anybody) after Camellia.
At least in my play-through, they'd been companions for 4+ Acts, Camellia dropped off the face of the earth, and _nobody even noticed_. But whatever.

Origineel geplaatst door Razer:

There's very little response from Seelah if you go against her tenets. You can murder who ever you like and she's like: For Iomedae!

I think that is something the writing did lack. Horgus is of course upset when you talk to him, but I feel NPCs as a whole tend to not notice when other characters die or disappear. In Kingmaker, I remember Ekundayo confronting me because I didn't take him when I spared the trolls. Stuff like that makes the game world feel more alive.

It's worse on things like Demon mythic path. In Drezen Seelah is standing in the middle of a blood pool next to a bunch fo demons and she's all happy like: "hey how are you??!" when you talk to her. She's not alone in this of course. Everyone is acting like everything is completely normal in Drezen.

[Shahadem]

Origineel geplaatst door Drake:

Are we doing this again ? Seelah's character was written by paizo (so it's an official pathfinder lore character) to be the pathfinder iconic paladin (so at the very start of the franchise 15 years ago).

If the original writter says that a lawful good paladin is allowed to do this in his universe, then that's how it is.

Pathfinder universe in not D&D universe, They don't have the same cosmic rules.

Like for example you can't have a neutral or good undead in pathfinder, while it's possible in D&D.

Seelah 100% is not the iconic paladin in Pathfinder. In the game characters comment on how Seelah as a paladin shouldn't be doing the things she does.

She's told she shouldn't be getting drunk.

She's told she shouldn't be lenient on her friend just because he's her friend.

She's told she shouldn't lie.

She's told she should follow her precepts more.

Paladins are supposed to be the preeminent champions of their chosen god in addition to the tenets laid down by that god. This does not differ between different PnP systems.

On top of that Paladins are a military order so in addition to being an examplar of their chosen god they must also adhere to the rules created by their order. Thus the Oath is just a thing that is sworn. But it is not the system of rules and duties a paladin must follow. It is like being sworn into the Bar or becoming a Muslim. The simple Oath you utter is not the limit of the rules you have to follow. Rather by swearing that oath you also agree to take on a large number of other rules as well.

[Vertigo]

Origineel geplaatst door Shahadem:

Seelah 100% is not the iconic paladin in Pathfinder. In the game characters comment on how Seelah as a paladin shouldn't be doing the things she does.

She's told she shouldn't be getting drunk.

She's told she shouldn't be lenient on her friend just because he's her friend.

She's told she shouldn't lie.

She's told she should follow her precepts more.

Paladins are supposed to be the preeminent champions of their chosen god in addition to the tenets laid down by that god. This does not differ between different PnP systems.

On top of that Paladins are a military order so in addition to being an examplar of their chosen god they must also adhere to the rules created by their order. Thus the Oath is just a thing that is sworn. But it is not the system of rules and duties a paladin must follow. It is like being sworn into the Bar or becoming a Muslim. The simple Oath you utter is not the limit of the rules you have to follow. Rather by swearing that oath you also agree to take on a large number of other rules as well.

I hate to break it to you, but there are plenty of lawyers and people of strict faiths that skirt the rules and are not condemned for it. In the interest of this not becoming about real world issues, that is all I will say.

I have listened to the camp banter on Youtube. Can you remind me where people rebuke her for behavior? Irabeth does at the start of Act II, but it is also obvious she is worried about appearances (since she is very reactive when it comes to the queen).

Also, where do we ever see Seelah drunk or unable to perform her duties because of it? I wonder if some understand that people can drink socially and know how to not get drunk.

I feel some on here are projecting their headcannon onto some of these things and making a mountain out of a molehill.

[Frozen Dervish]

Origineel geplaatst door Vertigo:

I feel some on here are projecting their headcannon onto some of these things and making a mountain out of a molehill.

They are. Like when people mention her rebuking you when you first encounter Curl. That's not true. She is the one who rebukes Curl asking him if looting the dead is something that is right.

Just like the person you quoted they have paladins in pathfinder 1e wrong. Paladins are not beholden to a deity. They can worship one, but are not granted powers by one nor do they lose powers by not doing what their deity says. A paladin is beholden only to their oath and ONLY the oath. Just like people trying to go through hoops to say drinking is wrong the paladin oath does not forbid drinking let alone drinking when it has no real effect on a paladin. People also try and go through hoops and quote "a paladin can't use poison due to their oath" when the oath is common sense applied to using poisons on others in a way to murder them.

TLDR: Players will try and headcanon anything that isn't true by ignoring what they don't like so they can push some sort of agenda that doesn't exist like truesight being able to see through anything or Paladins being far more restricted than they really are.

Edit: Just a small extra here. Player Paladin is not the correct way to play a paladin. Owlcat's dialogue system with alignment is a bad mechanic and not indicative of how alignment actually works.