seelah shouldn't be a paladin

[suprpiwi]

why the ♥♥♥♥ is she a paladin, she drinks, never answers in a lawful manner, rather chaotic good. what a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ of a paladin which means her powers would fall off

[Jiroa]

Jean-Maurice Nya původně napsal:

It makes perfect sense considering reputation is read as villain (0) - - > heroes (20). Xvar, Edwin... are evil and cannot stand heroes. Jaheira cannot stand both heroes and villains because they break balance.
On the contrary, Olwcat doesn't make alignment count in relationship between characters, which makes strictly no sense because it's actually how people behave when they have a moral compass of their own.
No, BG1 is still the reference for simulating interactions between companions, and it's far closer to the way things work around a table. My ranger will shoot an orc on sight if this is his favored enemy, that's how role-playing works. And to make a dwarf and an elf best buddies, you'll need thousands of lines of good writing to make it believable.

Alignment in pathfinder are not as regid as in old Dnd, two characters whit the same alignment can have less in common then some whit opposite ones.

The biggest example of this is Angels and Archons, they are both Lawful good outsiders that reside in heaven and yet Angels get along better whit Azatas who are Chaotic good because both of them can view pass their view on order and dicipline for the greater good while Archons belive that good cannot exist whitout order and would prefer a evil tyrant over a rebellion for a good cause.

[DavetheSpaceCowboy]

Her overall personal conduct is fine, especially for a fresh-faced and relatively inexperienced paladin. She may not be a great exemplar, but a she's paladin still.

The only reason Seelah shouldn't be a paladin (eventually) is her incredible tolerance of cartoonishly evil stuff done by those around her.

[jedi7000nathan/sevenbillionjedi]

This is why she was changed to be a Champion in Second Edition. I thought this debate was settled back in 2023, my take is still the same; Scrolls of Repentance exist and Seelah likely uses them a LOT.
Besides I prefer a free-spirited Paladin to the killjoys that make up most of Mendev's army. Need I elaborate further? I will say that we are making a fair amount of assumptions regarding the oaths forgetting that Seelah is a Paladin of an order of Iomedae from a kingdom in Garand, which has likely an entirely different code of oaths, tenants and even traditions, the paladins in Mendev tend to be more zealous (Which is a dangerous thing because it blinds them to obvious threats) due to being on the border of the Worldwound, Seelah is from a place where that isn't a major threat.
Also again scrolls of atonement exist why are we to assume she does NOT use them. Anyway this entire thing was settled over a year ago and the OP is beating a dead horse that was dead and buried and he dug back up again to beat it some more.

[Babbles]

You know exactly what type of person the OP is around the table ... short lived ...

[Jean-Maurice Nya]

Jiroa, I didn't say it's as rigid but it's built the same way, with clear antagonisms. And you described it well, and that's exactly your description of alignment that proves how consistent BG1 was with companion's alignment compared to Pathfinder, or BG3, or PoE...

[GrandMajora]

Minneyar původně napsal:

Why in the world would you think a paladin can't drink?

Probably because they associate the class with Christian values, and heavy drinking is considered sinful.

Personally, I'm more concerned about the fact Seelah casually disregards law and order for the sake of her friends. Like how she seems annoyed when we decide to rat out one of her 'friends' who we caught red handed looting the bodies of Deskari's victims.

This isn't D&D, this is Pathfinder 1E. Paladins have to be Lawful Good at all times, and if you find somebody looting corpses during a demonic invasion, you should have moral reservations about that!

[GrandMajora]

Razer původně napsal:

- I will strive to emulate Iomedae's perfection.

That last part is funny, because I was lead to believe that Iomedae is fully aware of the fact she's still inexperienced in her role as a deity. Which is why she seeks guidance from a bunch of other gods... one of which being ASMODEUS.

[Schlumpsha]

Giga Chad Asmodeus is a pretty nice guy.

[jedi7000nathan/sevenbillionjedi]

GrandMajora původně napsal:

Minneyar původně napsal:

Why in the world would you think a paladin can't drink?

Probably because they associate the class with Christian values, and heavy drinking is considered sinful.

Personally, I'm more concerned about the fact Seelah casually disregards law and order for the sake of her friends. Like how she seems annoyed when we decide to rat out one of her 'friends' who we caught red handed looting the bodies of Deskari's victims.

This isn't D&D, this is Pathfinder 1E. Paladins have to be Lawful Good at all times, and if you find somebody looting corpses during a demonic invasion, you should have moral reservations about that!

I don't simply due to the fact that if you apply that standard you'd have those reservations whenever someone picks up loot in this game. Also she did ask Curl if what he was about to do was worth it and he didn't take it. Anyway enough of this I though I already said the obvious answer for this is Scrolls of Atonement.

[Vertigo]

Jean-Maurice Nya původně napsal:

Well, considering I kept her alongside with Camellia just to see how a 100% murdering hyperpsychopath and a paladin will go along and Iws disappointed that Seelah didn't try to kill Camellia. It'd make a lot of sense while Seelah can find excuses for Wenduag's behavior.
That's indeed a big miss from Olwcat to let some characters getting along while their alignment and behavior call for a fight to death.

There is an interesting camp banter conversation. Seelah comments that she detects something is off with Camellia. Cam retorts this: how does she (Seelah) know if the detect evil isn't going off because she didn't give money to a beggar? Cam is a a complete pompous noble with some unhinged cries, but she is smart enough not to do her violent murdering of innocents around the others.

[Vertigo]

One thing I will never understand with these conversations:

"Seelah is not lawful because she drinks!"
"There is no law saying she cannot drink by Pathfinder guidelines."
"It's just not lawful because I say so."

I wonder how many of them think RPing a paladin means being an insufferable stick in the mud that tries to shove their views down the throats of others.

[mk11]

jedi7000nathan/sevenbillionjedi původně napsal:

GrandMajora původně napsal:

Probably because they associate the class with Christian values, and heavy drinking is considered sinful.

Personally, I'm more concerned about the fact Seelah casually disregards law and order for the sake of her friends. Like how she seems annoyed when we decide to rat out one of her 'friends' who we caught red handed looting the bodies of Deskari's victims.

This isn't D&D, this is Pathfinder 1E. Paladins have to be Lawful Good at all times, and if you find somebody looting corpses during a demonic invasion, you should have moral reservations about that!

I don't simply due to the fact that if you apply that standard you'd have those reservations whenever someone picks up loot in this game. Also she did ask Curl if what he was about to do was worth it and he didn't take it. Anyway enough of this I though I already said the obvious answer for this is Scrolls of Atonement.

At the very beginning of the game she argues against looting the corpse found near Camellia.

[jedi7000nathan/sevenbillionjedi]

mk11 původně napsal:

jedi7000nathan/sevenbillionjedi původně napsal:

I don't simply due to the fact that if you apply that standard you'd have those reservations whenever someone picks up loot in this game. Also she did ask Curl if what he was about to do was worth it and he didn't take it. Anyway enough of this I though I already said the obvious answer for this is Scrolls of Atonement.

At the very beginning of the game she argues against looting the corpse found near Camellia.

No she does NOT. I have played the game's start enough times to know that is not the case, nobody complains about it, Anevia in fact suggests the idea and nobody has reservations regarding it

[Jean-Maurice Nya]

Vertigo, you can make her kill several NPCs in front of the whole party. I even brought Ember once to do so and she didn't react to the execution. And Camellia tolerates Ember while it doesn't seem her cup of tea.
Now there're plenty of camp banters where you can find characters that don't really go along with each other's but it's far too permissive. Our party composition should be more restrictive depending on who you bring with you and what action you take.

[Vertigo]

Jean-Maurice Nya původně napsal:

Vertigo, you can make her kill several NPCs in front of the whole party. I even brought Ember once to do so and she didn't react to the execution. And Camellia tolerates Ember while it doesn't seem her cup of tea.
Now there're plenty of camp banters where you can find characters that don't really go along with each other's but it's far too permissive. Our party composition should be more restrictive depending on who you bring with you and what action you take.

And to be honest, I attribute some of it to bad writing. There is also an element of gameplay and story separation, but I get what you are saying. Then again, your KC can choose to have the shadiest, most corrupt handling of affairs while barely dinging you alignment. I think this is why alignment in games translates so poorly.

Also, Cam is absolutely terrible to Ember every step of the way. She makes it a point to treat her like utter garbage in all their banter.

And I agree that party compositions should matter. Like others have said, people would fight in BG1 if the alignments were too different. In PoE2, the resident anti theist Palliegina and Xoti argued nonstop and forced the watcher to settle it. I enjoyed there being palpable friction.