Daeran's alignment

[Razer]

I know there's been plenty of topics about this and other party members. Also know that the implementation of alignment in this game isn't really spot on. But I'm just having a hard time grasping the neutral evil part of this man. Especially if you put him in a party with Ember.

I mean he's a bit if a ♥♥♥♥ sometimes, but honestly that doesn't make a person evil. In the end it's all fun and games. He leans more to chaotic neutral to me. He enjoys nearly all chaotic choices you make and hates lawful ones.

He kind of seems to fit into any party composition because of his carefree attitude. Hence, neutral.

[Axetwin]

Originally posted by Vertigo:

Originally posted by arisen:

A strange discussion... Alignment is not about someone's deeds, it's rather about someone's thoughts and beliefs. Hulrun makes evil things believing they're lawful, not evil. Daeran enjoys making evil things and saying evil words (and he is convinced that he'll stay unpunished in any case, because the Other will protect him). That's the difference.

And I think people forget Hulrun is being a blood knight because he is in charge of things. He has to be zero tolerance during a time it's necessary. Demons slaughtered people under the guise of refugees, so is understandable why he doesn't take chances. The very opening of the game proves he is right.

He is not killing people because he enjoys it; he is taking a hard line stance (though it may be extreme). Burning Ember's family would be seen as evil by someone who knew them, but to the people of the town, he was protecting them. This is why he is definitely not good (but also not evil or chaotic either).

Except he was already turning a blind eye to the truth before Deskari's attack on the city meaning the game was proving him wrong at the very start. Ember (and her father) wasn't the only innocent he put the torch to, and the city wasn't under attack when he did that. As I said earlier in this thread, the difference between good and evil comes down to your capacity for cruelty, and Hulrun is a deeply cruel man.

[Vertigo]

Originally posted by Axetwin:

Except he was already turning a blind eye to the truth before Deskari's attack on the city meaning the game was proving him wrong at the very start. Ember (and her father) wasn't the only innocent he put the torch to, and the city wasn't under attack when he did that. As I said earlier in this thread, the difference between good and evil comes down to your capacity for cruelty, and Hulrun is a deeply cruel man.

I think we have to consider the bigger picture. Look at WIntersun. The town has people deceived into living side by side with demons, and some of them look like children. If you ask him directly, he tells this story: Kennabres used to welcome everyone. One day, some refugees came in that were actually demons. They slaughtered a bunch of innocents and made a huge mess.

Why was Staunton in the condition he was in? He was tricked by a demon dooming Drezden. Every succubus in the game that talks to the PC (that isn't Arue) tries to charm or trick the KC. It is more than reasonable to say that demons are fighting VERY dirty here.

Hulrun is more of person that needs to be extreme because of the circumstances. He has to believe he is doing the right thing, or else he would be eaten by guilt. Litor is able to keep him in check, and he backs down if the KC shows him the sword of heaven. A cruel person would not care about that stuff.

Yes, he treats the priests of Desna badly, but it was due to their own stupidity. I cannot blame him for not trusting them the way events went down in the city.

And if he lives to the end of the game, he eventually calms down a lot. It goes to show that he was made that way by his circumstances (and not because he was secretly a sadist).

[Razer]

Originally posted by Vertigo:

Originally posted by Axetwin:

Except he was already turning a blind eye to the truth before Deskari's attack on the city meaning the game was proving him wrong at the very start. Ember (and her father) wasn't the only innocent he put the torch to, and the city wasn't under attack when he did that. As I said earlier in this thread, the difference between good and evil comes down to your capacity for cruelty, and Hulrun is a deeply cruel man.

I think we have to consider the bigger picture. Look at WIntersun. The town has people deceived into living side by side with demons, and some of them look like children. If you ask him directly, he tells this story: Kennabres used to welcome everyone. One day, some refugees came in that were actually demons. They slaughtered a bunch of innocents and made a huge mess.

Why was Staunton in the condition he was in? He was tricked by a demon dooming Drezden. Every succubus in the game that talks to the PC (that isn't Arue) tries to charm or trick the KC. It is more than reasonable to say that demons are fighting VERY dirty here.

Hulrun is more of person that needs to be extreme because of the circumstances. He has to believe he is doing the right thing, or else he would be eaten by guilt. Litor is able to keep him in check, and he backs down if the KC shows him the sword of heaven. A cruel person would not care about that stuff.

Yes, he treats the priests of Desna badly, but it was due to their own stupidity. I cannot blame him for not trusting them the way events went down in the city.

And if he lives to the end of the game, he eventually calms down a lot. It goes to show that he was made that way by his circumstances (and not because he was secretly a sadist).

Hulrun deserves to be shot in the back in an alley though. He's one evil mofo.

He treats the priests of Desna badly? He wants to kill them. Lol. Kill them for saving his life and the city for that matter. But no, he doesn't care about the details. They broke into the Gray garrisson and therefore they must die. Hulrun isn't just or fair. He doesn't care about cause, reason or circumstance.

This is actually more common in Golarion than you'd think. People are actively talking about wanting or granting a fair trial. Which heavilly implies most trials aren't fair.

If Daeran is evil, then Hulrun is evil. And worse too than Daeran. Way, way worse.

[Axetwin]

Originally posted by Vertigo:

Originally posted by Axetwin:

Except he was already turning a blind eye to the truth before Deskari's attack on the city meaning the game was proving him wrong at the very start. Ember (and her father) wasn't the only innocent he put the torch to, and the city wasn't under attack when he did that. As I said earlier in this thread, the difference between good and evil comes down to your capacity for cruelty, and Hulrun is a deeply cruel man.

I think we have to consider the bigger picture. Look at WIntersun. The town has people deceived into living side by side with demons, and some of them look like children. If you ask him directly, he tells this story: Kennabres used to welcome everyone. One day, some refugees came in that were actually demons. They slaughtered a bunch of innocents and made a huge mess.

Why was Staunton in the condition he was in? He was tricked by a demon dooming Drezden. Every succubus in the game that talks to the PC (that isn't Arue) tries to charm or trick the KC. It is more than reasonable to say that demons are fighting VERY dirty here.

Hulrun is more of person that needs to be extreme because of the circumstances. He has to believe he is doing the right thing, or else he would be eaten by guilt. Litor is able to keep him in check, and he backs down if the KC shows him the sword of heaven. A cruel person would not care about that stuff.

Yes, he treats the priests of Desna badly, but it was due to their own stupidity. I cannot blame him for not trusting them the way events went down in the city.

And if he lives to the end of the game, he eventually calms down a lot. It goes to show that he was made that way by his circumstances (and not because he was secretly a sadist).

But at the end of the day, he was more concerned with persecuting the innocent than he was actually rooting out evil. His actions directly lead to the destruction of the worldstone because of how blinded he was to the truth. He saw things his way and his way only, and anyone that disagreed with him was sentenced to death.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by Vertigo:

Not that he is an adult, he could try to do something about it. He has lived with it long enough to know what it is capable of. He has money, connections, and is related to the Queen. He could definitely find help in dealing with this force (while avoiding the wrath of the inquisitors).

I'm not entirely convinced he could. Remember that The Other pretty much comes running the instant it senses that his secret is about to be exposed. I doubt that Daeran would even have the chance to explain the situation to an expert before they were having their head removed.

And simply killing The Other without preparing a containment ritual first seems to result in Daeran also being killed along with it.

The only reason we're able to help him, is because we went around behind his back and used some kind of divination magic to gaze into the past. We would never have gotten the scope of the situation through standard interrogation.

[Soul]

Originally posted by Razer:

Originally posted by Soul:

I dont think its being ruthless though.... I mean sure I know his situation is sympathetic and all.... but the fact is that he made his choice to walk that path.... he willed in the Other for revenge against both friend and foe at that point..... he was a child yes... but he was also one with a lot of responsibilities being taught to him.... so its not like he didnt know any better in this situation.... it would be quite different i'd say if he was just some peasant that had no schooling....

even doing his personal quests it shows that the fact he was a child has no bearing on the case really.... the inquisitor will do the investigation.... and knows that he was a child at the time.... yet still thinks a trial should be had after dealing with the Other... of course without your word as the commander if you have a good relationship with Daeran.... the trial ends badly for him.... meaning that they dont care at the trial whether he was a child or not at the time he let it into this world...

Children make poor decisions all the time, that's what being a child is all about. You make mistakes and learn. It's the reason children aren't tried as adults in the real world. So maybe you feel it's ok to do it, but the rest of the world (thankfully) disagrees with you. I'm sorry I cannot go along with you on this. It's irrational what you're saying. And unjust as well.

if thats what you think.... I think you are misunderstanding me....

im aware of all that....

and im not saying that the "child" version or the "adult" version of Daeran should be tried the same way....

all I said was that the child one was responsible for letting the Other in.... period

he was told and knew better than to allow it but let his anger get to him and he ended up killing people as a result.... in the real world there would be at least some consequences for a child if they killed someone like that...

of course if the inquisitors found out about the Other back then and were able to remove it earlier then Daeran's trial might have been different in the end... though the fact that he was willing to kill his mentor might be some cause for punishment.... he did state his intent to want him dead afterall...

but as an adult Daeran still was walking around with the Other the whole time.... at that point the trial would have been to determine how much of it was the Other vs how much was Daeran.... like were they working together by that point or did Daeran do enough to try to prevent it from killing....

but the fact is too.... the game doesnt take into account that he was a child when it all happened.... he was a child when it all happened sure.... but as an adult he still gets put on trial and will fail without your intervention.... meaning in the trial they dont care that he was a child and are trying him as an adult for something he did as a child.... which in a way was a failure of the adults at the time who didnt look into it deep enough with a proper investigation...

[Vertigo]

Originally posted by Razer:

Hulrun deserves to be shot in the back in an alley though. He's one evil mofo.

He treats the priests of Desna badly? He wants to kill them. Lol. Kill them for saving his life and the city for that matter. But no, he doesn't care about the details. They broke into the Gray garrisson and therefore they must die. Hulrun isn't just or fair. He doesn't care about cause, reason or circumstance.

This is actually more common in Golarion than you'd think. People are actively talking about wanting or granting a fair trial. Which heavily implies most trials aren't fair.

If Daeran is evil, then Hulrun is evil. And worse too than Daeran. Way, way worse.

Now I am going to challenge that.

You are approached by a bum on the street. He tells you your house will catch fire because he had a dream about it. You think it's odd but move on. A few days later, you catch the bum as he is breaking into your house. I highly doubt you are going think he was there to help.

So let's recap. Desna is the goddess of dreams. A vision comes to her followers from a demon of all things (and at the time, we don't know Arue is good). They go to a leader of the city during tense times and tell him about this dream. He has no reason to believe them based on what little evidence they have. They decide to take matters into their own hands and try to help the wardstone. Because they do not know what they are doing, their efforts amount to nothing. Since they had to break the law to do it, it looks really bad for them (especially when a demon invasion happens shortly afterward). It's easy to jump to the conclusion their intentions may not be genuine. Even the Desna followers admit their plan was bad.

Desna decides to sit quietly during all this. Why didn't she send a dream to ... say... Hulrun? Or why did she not warn her followers it would be a terrible look for them to do that? Divine intervention aside, their whole plan is idiotic, and the worst part is that they end up doing nothing of value. Of course it looks suspicious. For all he knows, they have secretly become cultists pretending to be Densa followers.

He is fair in that he doesn't execute them on the spot and will back off if you intervene for them. He also runs them out of town instead of hunting every last one of them down. He can be reasoned with and is not completely out of line. He was also right to be suspicious at the start of the game. Look at the alternatives: the Eagle Watch could barely keep its members loyal. It's no wonder he had to be a bit more ruthless to get things done.

[Razer]

Originally posted by Vertigo:

Originally posted by Razer:

Hulrun deserves to be shot in the back in an alley though. He's one evil mofo.

He treats the priests of Desna badly? He wants to kill them. Lol. Kill them for saving his life and the city for that matter. But no, he doesn't care about the details. They broke into the Gray garrisson and therefore they must die. Hulrun isn't just or fair. He doesn't care about cause, reason or circumstance.

This is actually more common in Golarion than you'd think. People are actively talking about wanting or granting a fair trial. Which heavily implies most trials aren't fair.

If Daeran is evil, then Hulrun is evil. And worse too than Daeran. Way, way worse.

Now I am going to challenge that.

You are approached by a bum on the street. He tells you your house will catch fire because he had a dream about it. You think it's odd but move on. A few days later, you catch the bum as he is breaking into your house. I highly doubt you are going think he was there to help.

So let's recap. Desna is the goddess of dreams. A vision comes to her followers from a demon of all things (and at the time, we don't know Arue is good). They go to a leader of the city during tense times and tell him about this dream. He has no reason to believe them based on what little evidence they have. They decide to take matters into their own hands and try to help the wardstone. Because they do not know what they are doing, their efforts amount to nothing. Since they had to break the law to do it, it looks really bad for them (especially when a demon invasion happens shortly afterward). It's easy to jump to the conclusion their intentions may not be genuine. Even the Desna followers admit their plan was bad.

Desna decides to sit quietly during all this. Why didn't she send a dream to ... say... Hulrun? Or why did she not warn her followers it would be a terrible look for them to do that? Divine intervention aside, their whole plan is idiotic, and the worst part is that they end up doing nothing of value. Of course it looks suspicious. For all he knows, they have secretly become cultists pretending to be Densa followers.

He is fair in that he doesn't execute them on the spot and will back off if you intervene for them. He also runs them out of town instead of hunting every last one of them down. He can be reasoned with and is not completely out of line. He was also right to be suspicious at the start of the game. Look at the alternatives: the Eagle Watch could barely keep its members loyal. It's no wonder he had to be a bit more ruthless to get things done.

That's not an accurate comparison. It wasn't a bum from the street. Ramien is the leader of the followers of Desna. He has his own church in Market Square.

Also the Gray Garrisson isn't anyone's house. And my house isn't in a world invaded by demons and cultists where people use magic. You'd think people would be a bit more inclined to believe if something extraordinary happens.

On top of that, whatever they did is not questioned. They did something good and saved a lot of people, but Hulrun doesn't care about it. I mean I get it. They broke in and they shouldn't have done that. But that's beside the point in the grand scheme of things. Hulrun burns children, kills innocents. That's just who he is. As long as he thinks he's right. He uses the law to kill innocent people. Does the law allow him? Yes. Is he evil? Also yes. Because he doesn't care about the people or the actual reason behind anything. There's 0 investigation. 0 justice. 0 fair treatment. And that's who Hulrun is. And for that, for killing innocents without checking if it's actually true. He needs to end up in a ditch.

I will give you your own example back at you. Let's say a guy tells you your kids will be murdered if you don't do something in your house to prevent it. You don't believe him and he breaks in, saves your kids and he gets arrested. Now he needs to be killed because he broke into your house. The guy who saved your kids. And you want him dead and don't care for what he actually did.

[Soul]

Originally posted by Vertigo:

Originally posted by Razer:

Hulrun deserves to be shot in the back in an alley though. He's one evil mofo.

He treats the priests of Desna badly? He wants to kill them. Lol. Kill them for saving his life and the city for that matter. But no, he doesn't care about the details. They broke into the Gray garrisson and therefore they must die. Hulrun isn't just or fair. He doesn't care about cause, reason or circumstance.

This is actually more common in Golarion than you'd think. People are actively talking about wanting or granting a fair trial. Which heavily implies most trials aren't fair.

If Daeran is evil, then Hulrun is evil. And worse too than Daeran. Way, way worse.

Now I am going to challenge that.

You are approached by a bum on the street. He tells you your house will catch fire because he had a dream about it. You think it's odd but move on. A few days later, you catch the bum as he is breaking into your house. I highly doubt you are going think he was there to help.

So let's recap. Desna is the goddess of dreams. A vision comes to her followers from a demon of all things (and at the time, we don't know Arue is good). They go to a leader of the city during tense times and tell him about this dream. He has no reason to believe them based on what little evidence they have. They decide to take matters into their own hands and try to help the wardstone. Because they do not know what they are doing, their efforts amount to nothing. Since they had to break the law to do it, it looks really bad for them (especially when a demon invasion happens shortly afterward). It's easy to jump to the conclusion their intentions may not be genuine. Even the Desna followers admit their plan was bad.

Desna decides to sit quietly during all this. Why didn't she send a dream to ... say... Hulrun? Or why did she not warn her followers it would be a terrible look for them to do that? Divine intervention aside, their whole plan is idiotic, and the worst part is that they end up doing nothing of value. Of course it looks suspicious. For all he knows, they have secretly become cultists pretending to be Densa followers.

He is fair in that he doesn't execute them on the spot and will back off if you intervene for them. He also runs them out of town instead of hunting every last one of them down. He can be reasoned with and is not completely out of line. He was also right to be suspicious at the start of the game. Look at the alternatives: the Eagle Watch could barely keep its members loyal. It's no wonder he had to be a bit more ruthless to get things done.

I think Hulrun has had a lot going on with him by the time we actually see him....

like he was just one bad day away from really breaking and we see it right in front of us with how he just stands there watching a hole in the ground while chaos is happening around him...

even the people that knew him before are apologetic for how he is now vs how he used to be.....

but as for Desna.... Desna's history kinda shows you dont mess with her.... like dreams are her domain and all... but she will fight back if you push her..... like she did with Aru for instance....

but I wouldnt call it a total waste though.... I mean sure the original plan to heal the wardstone might have failed.... but things were set in motion to allow you to open up the Azata path all because of that failure.... as well as the ability to actually go and rescue Aru from the prisons and help Desna on converting her to the side of good... plus Azata side of helping set up your court and all... getting you followers and your island....

[Vertigo]

Originally posted by Razer:

That's not an accurate comparison. It wasn't a bum from the street. Ramien is the leader of the followers of Desna. He has his own church in Market Square.

Also the Gray Garrisson isn't anyone's house. And my house isn't in a world invaded by demons and cultists where people use magic. You'd think people would be a bit more inclined to believe if something extraordinary happens.

On top of that, whatever they did is not questioned. They did something good and saved a lot of people, but Hulrun doesn't care about it. I mean I get it. They broke in and they shouldn't have done that. But that's beside the point in the grand scheme of things. Hulrun burns children, kills innocents. That's just who he is. As long as he thinks he's right. He uses the law to kill innocent people. Does the law allow him? Yes. Is he evil? Also yes. Because he doesn't care about the people or the actual reason behind anything. There's 0 investigation. 0 justice. 0 fair treatment. And that's who Hulrun is. And for that, for killing innocents without checking if it's actually true. He needs to end up in a ditch.

I will give you your own example back at you. Let's say a guy tells you your kids will be murdered if you don't do something in your house to prevent it. You don't believe him and he breaks in, saves your kids and he gets arrested. Now he needs to be killed because he broke into your house. The guy who saved your kids. And you want him dead and don't care for what he actually did.

How do you think they saved people?

Look at it like this. Hulrun is a follower of Iomade, not Desna. The Wardstone is a creation of Iomadae. Just because they thought something was wrong does not mean they did things the right way. Hulrun already doesn't trust them, and the stone has even more problems after their visit. It is not a leap in logic.

As for the trials, it makes sense in context. The city has been getting sieges for a while now, and there are demons trying to infiltrate. There are a LOT of cultists in the city, so it is true that he had a reason to be suspicious. The game never tells us how often he was right or wrong, so it is up to the player bias. The others in the town think he is extreme, but nobody wants to remove him either. He has to be doing something right.

Also, how do you hold trials of every single person that could be a cultist or a demon? In a camp banter, Seelah remarks to Camellia how she senses something is off about her. Camellia replies it could simply be because she doesn't give to beggars. Detect evil is not a viable spell for that reason. It would be hard to try every person that came to town.

If demons knew Hulrun would not try children, guess what they would all come into town as?

I get why people kill him, but he isn't entirely a mad dog either.

Originally posted by Soul:

I think Hulrun has had a lot going on with him by the time we actually see him....

like he was just one bad day away from really breaking and we see it right in front of us with how he just stands there watching a hole in the ground while chaos is happening around him...

even the people that knew him before are apologetic for how he is now vs how he used to be.....

On top of that, he probably had to live through a previous slaughter in Kennabres. In addition. he got so drained by a demon that the party could kill him at their level. He was definitely leading from the front, and it was probably tiring in addition to miserable.

As for the hole, there are dead mongrels in the area. It would look bad if a bunch of strange creatures started coming up from the earth amidst everything else going on.

Originally posted by Soul:

but as for Desna.... Desna's history kinda shows you dont mess with her.... like dreams are her domain and all... but she will fight back if you push her..... like she did with Aru for instance....

but I wouldnt call it a total waste though.... I mean sure the original plan to heal the wardstone might have failed.... but things were set in motion to allow you to open up the Azata path all because of that failure.... as well as the ability to actually go and rescue Aru from the prisons and help Desna on converting her to the side of good... plus Azata side of helping set up your court and all... getting you followers and your island....

Yes, from a player and a gameplay standpoint. From Hulrun's standpoint, they didn't actually do much of anything besides make themselves more suspicious. They did not fix the stone, they did not safe anyone, and they brought heat onto their sect. Desna also does not stop Hulrun from killing the head priest, so she is pretty selective when she gives aid.

[Razer]

Originally posted by Soul:

Originally posted by Vertigo:

Now I am going to challenge that.

You are approached by a bum on the street. He tells you your house will catch fire because he had a dream about it. You think it's odd but move on. A few days later, you catch the bum as he is breaking into your house. I highly doubt you are going think he was there to help.

So let's recap. Desna is the goddess of dreams. A vision comes to her followers from a demon of all things (and at the time, we don't know Arue is good). They go to a leader of the city during tense times and tell him about this dream. He has no reason to believe them based on what little evidence they have. They decide to take matters into their own hands and try to help the wardstone. Because they do not know what they are doing, their efforts amount to nothing. Since they had to break the law to do it, it looks really bad for them (especially when a demon invasion happens shortly afterward). It's easy to jump to the conclusion their intentions may not be genuine. Even the Desna followers admit their plan was bad.

Desna decides to sit quietly during all this. Why didn't she send a dream to ... say... Hulrun? Or why did she not warn her followers it would be a terrible look for them to do that? Divine intervention aside, their whole plan is idiotic, and the worst part is that they end up doing nothing of value. Of course it looks suspicious. For all he knows, they have secretly become cultists pretending to be Densa followers.

He is fair in that he doesn't execute them on the spot and will back off if you intervene for them. He also runs them out of town instead of hunting every last one of them down. He can be reasoned with and is not completely out of line. He was also right to be suspicious at the start of the game. Look at the alternatives: the Eagle Watch could barely keep its members loyal. It's no wonder he had to be a bit more ruthless to get things done.

I think Hulrun has had a lot going on with him by the time we actually see him....

like he was just one bad day away from really breaking and we see it right in front of us with how he just stands there watching a hole in the ground while chaos is happening around him...

even the people that knew him before are apologetic for how he is now vs how he used to be.....

but as for Desna.... Desna's history kinda shows you dont mess with her.... like dreams are her domain and all... but she will fight back if you push her..... like she did with Aru for instance....

but I wouldnt call it a total waste though.... I mean sure the original plan to heal the wardstone might have failed.... but things were set in motion to allow you to open up the Azata path all because of that failure.... as well as the ability to actually go and rescue Aru from the prisons and help Desna on converting her to the side of good... plus Azata side of helping set up your court and all... getting you followers and your island....

Yea he had a lot going on. He burned Ember at the stake for doing nothing wrong but just because of what she is. Hulrun is the white man from the colonial days that kills black people for their skin color. It's not a person you want to defend.

[Soul]

Originally posted by Vertigo:

Originally posted by Soul:

I think Hulrun has had a lot going on with him by the time we actually see him....

like he was just one bad day away from really breaking and we see it right in front of us with how he just stands there watching a hole in the ground while chaos is happening around him...

even the people that knew him before are apologetic for how he is now vs how he used to be.....

On top of that, he probably had to live through a previous slaughter in Kennabres. On top of that. he got so drained by a demon that the party could kill him at their level. He was definitely leading from the front, and it was probably tiring in addition to miserable.

As for the hole, there are dead mongrels in the area. It would look bad if a bunch of strange creatures started coming up from the earth amidst everything else going on.

well when you first meet him he does seem a little paranoid and all.... but it shows that he had people like Terendelev to keep him in check.... he respected her and im sure others as well were kinda "babysitting" him a bit to help manage the trauma that causes his paranoia to be on constant high alert.....

but with the events unfolding of seeing Terendelev die and all.... seemed to cause a mental breakdown of his paranoia that everything that happened was his fault for not doing more.... he had the feeling things were wrong and if he only paid attention to his gut then things might have been different.... which lead to him just standing there watching a hole in the ground while everyone was defending the tavern and gathering survivors and retaking the gray garrison without him...

[Cutlass Jack]

Hulrun was guarding a hole while demons were killing people within earshot of him. The only thing that got him away from that hole was trying to kill followers of a good aligned god who annoyed him.

Also worth mentioning that Daeran offered that same priest shelter and protection.

[Soul]

Originally posted by Razer:

Originally posted by Soul:

I think Hulrun has had a lot going on with him by the time we actually see him....

like he was just one bad day away from really breaking and we see it right in front of us with how he just stands there watching a hole in the ground while chaos is happening around him...

even the people that knew him before are apologetic for how he is now vs how he used to be.....

but as for Desna.... Desna's history kinda shows you dont mess with her.... like dreams are her domain and all... but she will fight back if you push her..... like she did with Aru for instance....

but I wouldnt call it a total waste though.... I mean sure the original plan to heal the wardstone might have failed.... but things were set in motion to allow you to open up the Azata path all because of that failure.... as well as the ability to actually go and rescue Aru from the prisons and help Desna on converting her to the side of good... plus Azata side of helping set up your court and all... getting you followers and your island....

Yea he had a lot going on. He burned Ember at the stake for doing nothing wrong but just because of what she is. Hulrun is the white man from the colonial days that kills black people for their skin color. It's not a person you want to defend.

its not a matter of defending him really.... just trying to understand the persons motivations is all..... how and why they got to the point they are at now kinda thing

in Ember's case it was messed up of course.... but also in this world.... elves are pretty much aliens.... and a lot of em left this world to return to their home planet.... the storyteller mentions this.... so in this case I guess you could say Ember was the "colonizer" lol.... which the worldwound and the demons are also not of this world either so that would make them "colonizer's" too.....

but even Ember doesnt hold a grudge against him for what he did.... she sees his actions as him believing he was doing the right thing and his intentions were not evil.... he just wanted to protect everyone from dangers he couldnt see...

[Curithane]

Originally posted by Vertigo:

Originally posted by Razer:

Hulrun deserves to be shot in the back in an alley though. He's one evil mofo.

He treats the priests of Desna badly? He wants to kill them. Lol. Kill them for saving his life and the city for that matter. But no, he doesn't care about the details. They broke into the Gray garrisson and therefore they must die. Hulrun isn't just or fair. He doesn't care about cause, reason or circumstance.

This is actually more common in Golarion than you'd think. People are actively talking about wanting or granting a fair trial. Which heavily implies most trials aren't fair.

If Daeran is evil, then Hulrun is evil. And worse too than Daeran. Way, way worse.

Now I am going to challenge that.

You are approached by a bum on the street. He tells you your house will catch fire because he had a dream about it. You think it's odd but move on. A few days later, you catch the bum as he is breaking into your house. I highly doubt you are going think he was there to help.

So let's recap. Desna is the goddess of dreams. A vision comes to her followers from a demon of all things (and at the time, we don't know Arue is good). They go to a leader of the city during tense times and tell him about this dream. He has no reason to believe them based on what little evidence they have. They decide to take matters into their own hands and try to help the wardstone. Because they do not know what they are doing, their efforts amount to nothing. Since they had to break the law to do it, it looks really bad for them (especially when a demon invasion happens shortly afterward). It's easy to jump to the conclusion their intentions may not be genuine. Even the Desna followers admit their plan was bad.

Desna decides to sit quietly during all this. Why didn't she send a dream to ... say... Hulrun? Or why did she not warn her followers it would be a terrible look for them to do that? Divine intervention aside, their whole plan is idiotic, and the worst part is that they end up doing nothing of value. Of course it looks suspicious. For all he knows, they have secretly become cultists pretending to be Densa followers.

He is fair in that he doesn't execute them on the spot and will back off if you intervene for them. He also runs them out of town instead of hunting every last one of them down. He can be reasoned with and is not completely out of line. He was also right to be suspicious at the start of the game. Look at the alternatives: the Eagle Watch could barely keep its members loyal. It's no wonder he had to be a bit more ruthless to get things done.

Based and Pragmatism Pilled