Dex fighters in Pathfinder WOTR, Need 3 feats?

[Beast]

Hey all,

Researching on finesse fighter types...

It seems that in order to be a finesse melee fighter you need 3 feats:

1) Weapon Finesse
2) Weapon focus
3) Slashing/Fencing Grace

Is this accurate? This seems like a lot of investment just to make sure you dex is being used for both attack and damage rolls.

Am I missing something?

[Raikon]

Yeah, a rogue splash will give you wpn finesse, and dex to damage.

[titanopteryx]

Rogue level 3 lets you pick a weapon finesse weapon to convert its damage to use your dex instead. Rogue 1 gives you weapon finesse. Alternatively you can pick the weapon finesse mystic ability to convert your weapons to use dex.

[Raikon]

Or conversly, several martial classes give you a lot of feats to make it not as noticable.

Slayer, Fighter, Monk, Vivisectionist, Ranger

[jsaving]

Even if you get DEX-to-damage, going that route isn't necessarily the clever trick it might initially seem because it doesn't fully get your DPS to where a STR-based character's would be. There are three distinct reasons for that. First, Kingmaker and Wrath offer more ways to boost STR than DEX so a properly equipped and buffed character will generally have a higher STR than DEX. Second, the game's highest-damage weapons aren't finessable. And third, the regular/mythic feat slots you burn for finesse could've been used for extra DPS if you'd gone STR-based. DEX-based has its place but you just want to make sure you understand you're accepting less DPS in exchange for other things, like somewhat higher AC.

[Beast]

Originally posted by jsaving:

Even if you get DEX-to-damage, going that route isn't necessarily the clever trick it might initially seem because it doesn't fully get your DPS to where a STR-based character's would be. There are three distinct reasons for that. First, Kingmaker and Wrath offer more ways to boost STR than DEX so a properly equipped and buffed character will generally have a higher STR than DEX. Second, the game's highest-damage weapons aren't finessable. And third, the regular/mythic feat slots you burn for finesse could've been used for extra DPS if you'd gone STR-based. DEX-based has its place but you just want to make sure you understand you're accepting less DPS in exchange for other things, like somewhat higher AC.

Yeah, that's why I was asking. Seems like a more " standard" strength build is much easier to deal with, especially if you have a multiple-attribute style of character... now I have to find 3 feats as well. Glad I asked, thanks everyone!

[rangerswg]

Originally posted by Jim, Earthworm:

Hey all,

Researching on finesse fighter types...

It seems that in order to be a finesse melee fighter you need 3 feats:

1) Weapon Finesse
2) Weapon focus
3) Slashing/Fencing Grace

Is this accurate? This seems like a lot of investment just to make sure you dex is being used for both attack and damage rolls.

Am I missing something?

Every fighter (and rogue, tbh) should have weapon focus, so that's not a feat tax to Dex-fighters, as such. That's like saying a wizard is taxed with spell penetration when a sorcerer should have it too. And yes, weapon focus is a pre-req for grace. But it's also a pre-req for Weapon Specialization (which again, every fighter should have). So Weapon Focus is simply a must-feat across the board for characters whose role is physical damage.

[GunStarX]

The problem with fencing grace is that you can't dual weild which is one of the main things you can do with high dex and finesse weapons.

For 2h damage I think dualing sword works (it used to anyways) with fencing grace and damage increase from power attack

[Drake]

Originally posted by rangerswg:

Originally posted by Jim, Earthworm:

Hey all,

Researching on finesse fighter types...

It seems that in order to be a finesse melee fighter you need 3 feats:

1) Weapon Finesse
2) Weapon focus
3) Slashing/Fencing Grace

Is this accurate? This seems like a lot of investment just to make sure you dex is being used for both attack and damage rolls.

Am I missing something?

Every fighter (and rogue, tbh) should have weapon focus, so that's not a feat tax to Dex-fighters, as such. That's like saying a wizard is taxed with spell penetration when a sorcerer should have it too. And yes, weapon focus is a pre-req for grace. But it's also a pre-req for Weapon Specialization (which again, every fighter should have). So Weapon Focus is simply a must-feat across the board for characters whose role is physical damage.

That's why fighters and other martial classes have bonus combat feats, so that you don't expand a general feat slot. It's not handed to you to give you the freedom, you can pick that with the bonus combat feats, or you can to something else.

[Baldurs_Gate_2]

You miss, that dex also provides initiative and AC without wearing armor. Especially in the beginning, dex is way better than str.

[Zerfyx]

I'm suprised that no one has mentioned that mythic weapon finesse adds dex to damage, meaning that you can easily get dex to damage as any class. And unlike slashing/ fencing grace, it lets you use any weapon that's light, and you can dual them.

[Conquista]

Originally posted by Zerfyx:

I'm suprised that no one has mentioned that mythic weapon finesse adds dex to damage, meaning that you can easily get dex to damage as any class. And unlike slashing/ fencing grace, it lets you use any weapon that's light, and you can dual them.

second post in this thread mentioned mythic weapon finesse

[Beast]

Learning the game still here... I did know about this mythic weapon finesse... I don't know how long it will take to get that? Dex bonuses are great, but it seemed weird to have to wait several levels having negative damage bonuses (having used strength as a dump stat) before getting the finesse bonuses.

At what point is that mythic feat available, typically?

[hilburnashua]

It might seem like a big investment. But Dex is often a far more relevant stat then Strength. Strength affects hitting and damage with melee weapons (and damage with thrown weapons), carrying capacity, and Athletics tests and intimidation tests with one feat. That's it. And in the PnP it doesn't effect all that much more.

Dex meanwhile modifies ranged combat, armor class, initiative, Reflex Saves, Stealth, Trickery, and Mobility Tests. And in the PnP it is even more important. So abilities to let dex be substituted for str for melee are really strong. So putting limits on not being able to dual wield and apply dex to damage makes a lot of sense in the PnP game and this game, roughly, uses those rules to build on. Then Paizo released Unchained which gave rogues at level 3 to pick one weapon to be able to apply dex to damage to even dual wielding things got a bit crazier.

In Kingmaker one of the highest damage companions was a goblin rogue that dual wielded kukris. Bugger destroyed opponents left and right. Now, in Wrath with the increase to AC, iterative attacks are often not as good as they were in Kingmaker, which makes dual wielders a bit less powerful (although I have a lvl 20 Angel Path Warpriest that does very well). Which makes dual wielding Dex based characters less effective too. The Mythic Powers have make Vital Strikers very potent one hit killers and dual wielders haven't received anything similar. Even dual wielders with elemental barrage (which can be pretty good) generally don't have as much one round end the fight ability as Vital Strikers do.

[Zerfyx]

Originally posted by Conquista:

Originally posted by Zerfyx:

I'm suprised that no one has mentioned that mythic weapon finesse adds dex to damage, meaning that you can easily get dex to damage as any class. And unlike slashing/ fencing grace, it lets you use any weapon that's light, and you can dual them.

second post in this thread mentioned mythic weapon finesse

My bad, i just got back from nightshift there, fully missed that.

Originally posted by Jim, Earthworm:

Learning the game still here... I did know about this mythic weapon finesse... I don't know how long it will take to get that? Dex bonuses are great, but it seemed weird to have to wait several levels having negative damage bonuses (having used strength as a dump stat) before getting the finesse bonuses.

At what point is that mythic feat available, typically?

You get it at roughly lvl 6, mid through act 2.

[hilburnashua]

If I remember correctly, the dueling sword allows the wielder to use dex to damage so long as they have the Weapon Finesse feat. I don't think it limits to being used with an empty offhand either. So if you take ... I think it's 9 ranks in fighter you gain an advanced weapon training that lets you use an offhand weapon that isn't light without incurring the normal -4 penalty to both weapons you could dual wield dueling swords.