Why are Paladins restricted to lawful good yet we have examples in lore of Paladins that serve chaotic deities

[JediLordNathan]

Alright this is one that merits some explanation but having recently looked into the lore of Calistria it states that she clear has paladins, yet she is a chaotic aligned diety with the three alingments of a Calistria worshiper being chaotic good, chaotic neutral and chaotic evil. No lawful good. Yet in order to be a Paladin you have to be lawfully good, so then explain to me how non-lawful deities can have paladins and should paladins really be required to be lawful good at all. Because I'm off the opinion if not lawful good dieites have their own paladin then the alignment restriction mechanic is even stupider then I already considered it. Because if you have in universe sources controdicting the very way a mechanic works by allowing chaotic dieties such as Callistria or lawfully evil dieties like Asmodeous to have paladins then you may as well get rid of the alignment restriction entirely there is no point to having it in that case.

[Frozen Dervish]

Schlumpsha님이 먼저 게시:

Frozen Dervish님이 먼저 게시:

Wrong. They literally do not receive any power from deities in 1e.

Wrong. They literally receive all of their power from deities in 1e. 🤣

Ex-Paladins:
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features (including the service of the paladin’s mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any further in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see atonement), as appropriate.

1. Where in that quote does it say they received or lost their powers via deity.

2. As per the the lead creative dev of paizo the only classes that receive direct power from deities are clerics and by extension warpriests. So please feel free to contradict the head honcho in this regard.

[Schlumpsha]

GrandMajora님이 먼저 게시:

The exact wording on that does not mention deities even once. Though it does reference following a code of conduct.

And said code of conduct is unique to each deity accepting Paladins. Iomedae's code[www.aonprd.com] for instance commands moderation in all things, whereas Abadar's[www.aonprd.com] requires to ensure fair trade. Going against the code means going against their very deity. Hence the loss of said bestowed abilities.

[Frozen Dervish]

Schlumpsha님이 먼저 게시:

GrandMajora님이 먼저 게시:

The exact wording on that does not mention deities even once. Though it does reference following a code of conduct.

And said code of conduct is unique to each deity accepting Paladins. Iomedae's code[www.aonprd.com] for instance commands moderation in all things, whereas Abadar's[www.aonprd.com] requires to ensure fair trade. Going against the code means going against their very deity. Hence the loss of said bestowed abilities.

No, going against the oath is going against the oath. The custom oath when following a specific deity is the same as the original oath just tailor made for that paladin. It does not mean the paladin receives their power from that deity. All these custom oaths also do not violate the original oath which is: "A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents."

Also do note deities that are not within 1-step of lawful good not only do not have paladins, but Pathfinder Society had to make a rule detailing it because people tried to skirt the rules such as making a paladin of asmodeus.

And once again you can rail against it all you like, but paladins do not receive their power from deities, and the lead dev has made mention of the same thing.

[GrandMajora]

Frozen Dervish님이 먼저 게시:

Also do note deities that are not within 1-step of lawful good not only do not have paladins, but Pathfinder Society had to make a rule detailing it because people tried to skirt the rules such as making a paladin of asmodeus.

... explain? :-)

[Frozen Dervish]

GrandMajora님이 먼저 게시:

Frozen Dervish님이 먼저 게시:

Also do note deities that are not within 1-step of lawful good not only do not have paladins, but Pathfinder Society had to make a rule detailing it because people tried to skirt the rules such as making a paladin of asmodeus.

... explain? :-)

it's literally right there? Players in pathfinder society would try and make characters that blatantly would not work because it goes against what a paladin is because the rules do not stipulate paladins needing a deity. Thus you would get abominations such as paladins of asmodeus, paladins of rovagug and so on so PFS made a rule that paladins must have a deity within 1-step alignment of lawful good. So LG, NG, LN are the only allowed deity alignments for a paladin that worships (this is while playing PFS. The rule does not apply to actual table play if you are not a part of PFS since it is a homebrew rule(So would be up to your DM to allow you to do such a thing)).

[JediLordNathan]

Raikon님이 먼저 게시:

jedi7000nathan/sevenbillionjedi님이 먼저 게시:

And who exactly wrote said rules point to me a source where it says a Paladin of Iomedae can't drink or have a good time or act like a real human being in fact make it three but I know you can't and won't because you are someone that thinks the extremes of any alingment are the norm that couldn't be further from the truth then you are from Alpha Centauri, its not at all how the settings rules work the rules are always going to be subject to player bias and what the player thinks they are, your interpretation of the rules is about as differant as mine or as anyone else. So do me a favor and provide information to back up your opinion because if you can't then your opinion is just that opinion not fact

I will be temperate in my actions and moderate in my behavior. I will strive to emulate Iomedae's perfection. Paladin code of iomedae

Does this look like moderation to you?

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2826977716

That looks like what I'd call Irabeth being a Killjoy and puritan. There is a deference between having a code of ethics you choose to follow and demanding people adhere to it in the extreme. There is a differance between a devout worshiper of a faith and a zealot, the devout worshiper follows their faiths tenents and has true faith in it, they go about living their lives in accordance to that faith, the differance between a zealot and a devout believer is that zealots try to force their faith down the throat of others and treat any mistake another worshipper makes as worthy of shame I am with Daeran I despise puritans and demons in equal measure though I hate the latter A LOT more because well they are the opposite of everything it means to be human, but Puritans they sap any joy out of life and try to force people to be something they aren't not mention punishing people harshly for the slightest of reasons.
Also Iomedae's perfection?! Don't make me laugh she is as flawed as any human being, Irori is the only human being that acheived divine status thru perfection hence his title the perfect human Iomadae is petty, apathetic and rigid to a point that she makes Galfrey look spontaneous, she also didn't earn godhood thru hard work like her forebear Arodan who worked his ass off to achieve divine status and was constantly proactive even after ascending to godhood always giving aid to those who asked for it and was not afraid to get out and stop world ending threats like Tar-Baphon, Iomadae basically had divine status handed to her and what has she done of note since ascending to divine status, nothing of real note apart from create a faith of crazed puritanical zealots that make more enemies then they can handle by their rigidness and swift rush to judgment, that is what I call Lawfully Stupid when your adherence to your convictions blinds you to the fact you are doing WAY more harm then good which is something Iomedae's followers do constanty and Iomedae oh Nocticula and Areelu had the right of it when you meet her in game. In fact her lecturing me after I've worked my ass off doing everything I can to save Golarion and having achieved far more then anyone else and come closer to ending the threat of the Worldwound then anyone else has the nerve to tell me I'm doing it wrong and I may add is likely doing so to try and stop me from achieving ascension and becoming a demi-god with the potential to become a deity in my own right a deity that would be way better at being a deity then Iomedae and that the majority of people of Mendev would rather worship then her at the drop of a hat. Well I'd say she jealous petty ♥♥♥♥♥ who doesn't even deserve to be a deity, Deskari is 100% right to call her an imposter because she is not worthy of worship because she is unwilling to take steps needed to protect her worshipers, say what you will about interplaner wars BUT there are ways she can help that don't risk triggering one, like sending visions to warn her followers of impending attacks, hell if she took the field herself she wouldn't even need to invade the abyss just march into the Worldwound and close the portal.
Anyway in short my thoughts on this is I think Irabeth is being a killjoy and unnecessarily so, I hate both puritans and demons in equal measure though the latter a deal more but only just a little bit more, and Iomedae is a petty jealous imposter ♥♥♥♥♥ of a goddess who really shouldn't even be a diety the player would make a better deity then Iomeda and for once I agree with the demons Areelu, Nocticula and Deskari are 100% correct about Iomedae because she is just an awful deity and I'd sooner worship Zon-Kuthon then Iomedae yeah I'd rather worship a chaotic-evil deity that enjoys inflicting pain and misery over Iomedae that's how much I hate her

[Schlumpsha]

Frozen Dervish님이 먼저 게시:

It does not mean the paladin receives their power from that deity. All these custom oaths also do not violate the original oath which is: "A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

No, they do not violate the standard oath. But you can indeed very much fall from grace once you go against the deity's own code. No matter if you are still lawful good, or didn't commit evil. As RAW also dictates this.

Frozen Dervish님이 먼저 게시:

Also do note deities that are not within 1-step of lawful good not only do not have paladins, but Pathfinder Society had to make a rule detailing it because people tried to skirt the rules such as making a paladin of asmodeus.

Obviously. The number of deities accepting Paladins is limited. Abadar is also the only neutral deity who does so. Any other god is either lawful good or neutral good. A Paladin is required to pick one of them. No such thing as an atheist Paladin, I'm afraid. As that, too, is a reason to fall. Notable here being Valerie from Kingmaker for this to happen.

Frozen Dervish님이 먼저 게시:

And once again you can rail against it all you like, but paladins do not receive their power from deities, and the lead dev has made mention of the same thing.

Amuse me then. Where does the divine spellcasting, celestial mount and holy power for smiting come from if not given by their deity? Hmm? Surely you are not suggesting that's all self-taught arcane abilities, right? Or that all this comes from Shaman spirits, Witch patrons, or innate psychic magic.

[JediLordNathan]

Frozen Dervish님이 먼저 게시:

GrandMajora님이 먼저 게시:

... explain? :-)

it's literally right there? Players in pathfinder society would try and make characters that blatantly would not work because it goes against what a paladin is because the rules do not stipulate paladins needing a deity. Thus you would get abominations such as paladins of asmodeus, paladins of rovagug and so on so PFS made a rule that paladins must have a deity within 1-step alignment of lawful good. So LG, NG, LN are the only allowed deity alignments for a paladin that worships (this is while playing PFS. The rule does not apply to actual table play if you are not a part of PFS since it is a homebrew rule(So would be up to your DM to allow you to do such a thing)).

Also lets note that Seelah is not even from Mendev which means she likely swore her oath to an entirely differant Paladin order with teachings and aspects in their code that are likely very differant from the Mendevian codes as well they aren't from a nation under constant attack by demons so drinking alcohol and her generally free spirited nature could be because her order and their code don't care about that, in fact its far more likely that her order is concerned about doing good and fighting against those who would do harm to innocents, she doesn't voice any protest if you decide to fight Halrun, in fact she outright calls him out for his actions, yeah he may have a good response that being his method of worship is differant but his code of worship is in direct opposition with Seelah's code in that instance. So essentially the reason I think she is able to stay a Paladin is that her order's code is focused on the good aspect rather then the lawful aspect of their alignment and she thus follows their laws of their code by fighting evil forces wherever they exist and whatever side they belong to.
Because in all honesty no two paladin orders in Golarion are the same and worship their diety in the same way, you have normal Shelyn worshipers who focus on protecting others and then you have the crazies like the ones in Kingmaker trying to force Valerie back into their order against her will and in violation by the way of the laws of the kingdom they are in and also the broader River Freedoms too. So its easy to say that if we were to meet other Paladins of Seelah's order they'd likely be a lot more like her.

[JediLordNathan]

Schlumpsha님이 먼저 게시:

Frozen Dervish님이 먼저 게시:

It does not mean the paladin receives their power from that deity. All these custom oaths also do not violate the original oath which is: "A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

No, they do not violate the standard oath. But you can indeed very much fall from grace once you go against the deity's own code. No matter if you are still lawful good, or didn't commit evil. As RAW also dictates this.

Frozen Dervish님이 먼저 게시:

Also do note deities that are not within 1-step of lawful good not only do not have paladins, but Pathfinder Society had to make a rule detailing it because people tried to skirt the rules such as making a paladin of asmodeus.

Obviously. The number of deities accepting Paladins is limited. Abadar is also the only neutral deity who does so. Any other god is either lawful good or neutral good. A Paladin is required to pick one of them. No such thing as an atheist Paladin, I'm afraid. As that, too, is a reason to fall. Notable here being Valerie from Kingmaker for this to happen.

Frozen Dervish님이 먼저 게시:

And once again you can rail against it all you like, but paladins do not receive their power from deities, and the lead dev has made mention of the same thing.

Amuse me then. Where does the divine spellcasting, celestial mount and holy power for smiting come from if not given by their deity? Hmm? Surely you are not suggesting that's all self-taught arcane abilities, right? Or that all this comes from Shaman spirits, Witch patrons, or innate psychic magic.

Don't even get me started on the divine vs arcane magic thing, its fairly obvious that there is overlap between the two types of magic hence how it is that some spells can be cast by both arcane and divine casters. Its generally a matter of where the magic comes from that changes things. Anyway on a bit of side rant I'm opposed to any nation that represses either type of caster and believe that all magic should be allows to be practiced so long as that magic is not used to cause delibrate harm to innocents, self-defense and in war against any foe is fine, thus I consider myself the enemy of anyone that believes in perscuting and murdering those who practice differant forms of magic just as much as I'm opposed to Cheliax for its practice of enslaving people and worship of Devil hell their patron deity is literally Satan (Asmodeous is based 100% on the real life Satan according to his background so I am safe in calling them the same) and I will always be in opposition to Satan and his followers be it in a video game or real life I've always been and always will be his enemy, to me Devils and demons are virtually the same in my eyes, evil forces bent on the destruction of good and freedom with their intent in replacing it with their own form of cruelty and evil.

[GrandMajora]

Frozen Dervish님이 먼저 게시:

it's literally right there? Players in pathfinder society would try and make characters that blatantly would not work because it goes against what a paladin is because the rules do not stipulate paladins needing a deity. Thus you would get abominations such as paladins of asmodeus, paladins of rovagug and so on so PFS made a rule that paladins must have a deity within 1-step alignment of lawful good. So LG, NG, LN are the only allowed deity alignments for a paladin that worships (this is while playing PFS. The rule does not apply to actual table play if you are not a part of PFS since it is a homebrew rule(So would be up to your DM to allow you to do such a thing)).

Pffft, Paladin of Rovagug?

That is almost literally incomprehensible to me. I can't seem to imagine how it would even begin to function.

[JediLordNathan]

GrandMajora님이 먼저 게시:

Frozen Dervish님이 먼저 게시:

it's literally right there? Players in pathfinder society would try and make characters that blatantly would not work because it goes against what a paladin is because the rules do not stipulate paladins needing a deity. Thus you would get abominations such as paladins of asmodeus, paladins of rovagug and so on so PFS made a rule that paladins must have a deity within 1-step alignment of lawful good. So LG, NG, LN are the only allowed deity alignments for a paladin that worships (this is while playing PFS. The rule does not apply to actual table play if you are not a part of PFS since it is a homebrew rule(So would be up to your DM to allow you to do such a thing)).

Pffft, Paladin of Rovagug?

That is almost literally incomprehensible to me. I can't seem to imagine how it would even begin to function.

Second that, I mean seriously Rovagug really doesn't even care about his followers at all and would destroy them just as much as anyone else, anyone worshiping Rovagug is either a massive fool or insane, sure he'll grant you diving casting but what do you think he'd do if you freed him from his prison? He'd eat you just like everything else. Rovagug is Chaotic evil personified a force of unmitigated unbiased destructive evil that wants to eat everything and if he were to feed on everything he'd likely eat himself though I'm willing to bet if he broke loose the entire pantheon would go out of their way to kill him before that happened.

[GrandMajora]

jedi7000nathan/sevenbillionjedi님이 먼저 게시:

Also Iomedae's perfection?! Don't make me laugh she is as flawed as any human being, Irori is the only human being that acheived divine status thru perfection hence his title the perfect human Iomadae is petty, apathetic and rigid to a point that she makes Galfrey look spontaneous, she also didn't earn godhood thru hard work like her forebear Arodan who worked his ass off to achieve divine status and was constantly proactive even after ascending to godhood always giving aid to those who asked for it and was not afraid to get out and stop world ending threats like Tar-Baphon, Iomadae basically had divine status handed to her and what has she done of note since ascending to divine status, nothing of real note apart from create a faith of crazed puritanical zealots that make more enemies then they can handle by their rigidness and swift rush to judgment, that is what I call Lawfully Stupid when your adherence to your convictions blinds you to the fact you are doing WAY more harm then good which is something Iomedae's followers do constanty

Bare in mind that Iomedae has only been a deity for roughly 100 years at this point. She's practically an infant in the grand scheme of divinity.

Not only that, but Iomedae is fully aware of the fact she is inexperienced as a deity, and actively seeks out guidance from more experienced deities so that she can learn to be better in her role.

Yes, Iomedae has not achieved the same feats as her forebearer, but she's at least working to address that problem.

[Schlumpsha]

GrandMajora님이 먼저 게시:

Bare in mind that Iomedae has only been a deity for roughly 100 years at this point. She's practically an infant in the grand scheme of divinity.

Not only that, but Iomedae is fully aware of the fact she is inexperienced as a deity, and actively seeks out guidance from more experienced deities so that she can learn to be better in her role.

Yes, Iomedae has not achieved the same feats as her forebearer, but she's at least working to address that problem.

I know right? And her Paladins follow a code that makes them strive to emulate Iomedae’s... "perfection". The irony is quite thick.

[GrandMajora]

jedi7000nathan/sevenbillionjedi님이 먼저 게시:

Second that, I mean seriously Rovagug really doesn't even care about his followers at all and would destroy them just as much as anyone else, anyone worshiping Rovagug is either a massive fool or insane, sure he'll grant you diving casting but what do you think he'd do if you freed him from his prison? He'd eat you just like everything else. Rovagug is Chaotic evil personified a force of unmitigated unbiased destructive evil that wants to eat everything and if he were to feed on everything he'd likely eat himself though I'm willing to bet if he broke loose the entire pantheon would go out of their way to kill him before that happened.

Many of his worshipers actually want that to happen. They are a nihilistic death cult, who have lost the ability to find any sense of happiness in life, and they want everything to end. They know full well that Rovagug will turn on them just as quickly as he does the rest of the universe, but they don't care.

In fact, one of the doctrines of Rovagug's faith actively forbids his worshipers from creating anything new. Their purpose is to destroy everything they can get their hands on, and bringing something new into the world is anathema to that goal.

[Frozen Dervish]

Schlumpsha님이 먼저 게시:

Frozen Dervish님이 먼저 게시:

It does not mean the paladin receives their power from that deity. All these custom oaths also do not violate the original oath which is: "A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

No, they do not violate the standard oath. But you can indeed very much fall from grace once you go against the deity's own code. No matter if you are still lawful good, or didn't commit evil. As RAW also dictates this.

Frozen Dervish님이 먼저 게시:

Also do note deities that are not within 1-step of lawful good not only do not have paladins, but Pathfinder Society had to make a rule detailing it because people tried to skirt the rules such as making a paladin of asmodeus.

Obviously. The number of deities accepting Paladins is limited. Abadar is also the only neutral deity who does so. Any other god is either lawful good or neutral good. A Paladin is required to pick one of them. No such thing as an atheist Paladin, I'm afraid. As that, too, is a reason to fall. Notable here being Valerie from Kingmaker for this to happen.

Frozen Dervish님이 먼저 게시:

And once again you can rail against it all you like, but paladins do not receive their power from deities, and the lead dev has made mention of the same thing.

Amuse me then. Where does the divine spellcasting, celestial mount and holy power for smiting come from if not given by their deity? Hmm? Surely you are not suggesting that's all self-taught arcane abilities, right? Or that all this comes from Shaman spirits, Witch patrons, or innate psychic magic.

1. Once again the code is not deity given. Nor is the power.

2. A paladin is not required to pick one.(Exception being PFS due to issues stated above)

3. Divine spellcasting of a paladin comes from nature. Most specifically the force of nature known as good. As per the divine casting rules in the core rulebook. Druid's/Rangers gain their power via Nature itself, while paladins receive it from Good. Clerics gain their power from their deity. Please you will not win this with the lead creative dev of paizo stating it, but the rules as well. Try as you might it will not change what is.