Demon mythic path story in enhanced?

[EXEC_PAJA_/.]

I'm thinking of going back and doing another playthrough. Is the Demon Mythic storyline still "generic evil bad guy" near the end? Or can i go demon and still be chaotic neutral with the enhanced edition now in?

Would like to know how they did with the demon path with the "Enhanced Edition" since it's the only one i actually enjoyed playing (even if i hated the "generic evil bad guy" later on).

[Schlumpsha]

Demon being enforced into Chaotic Evil is intended and has stayed. However, the EE brought certain new outcomes. As well as the possibility to become an archpriest of at least one demon lord.

[EXEC_PAJA_/.]

Quoting: "Impulsive and irrepressible, Demons do as they please with no regard for the opinion of others. The Demon is the epitome of rage; a little push is all that is needed to break their self-control and turn them into a force to be feared—by enemies and friends alike. It is up to the Demon to decide whether to allow the inner beast to take control, or to fight it, chain it, force it into obedience."

It's really disappointing that the game doesn't let me "do as i please" and gives me no control in choices to represent my character's true intentions and ambitions. There is no controlling or chaining here, the game just takes that away and adds in a generic and cliched evil route here. Alright, what about gold dragon or lich? Did they add anything new to these? I don't mean little additions, like, content heavy?

[Schlumpsha]

Well, you kind of can by sparing Galfrey at Iz. Or how you can control the rage and become an demon noble. Or by switching paths to something less evil. But nothing like a certain ascending demoness. Other than that, remember that Nocticula will eventually become a Chaotic Neutral goddess herself. Maybe being her archpriest after Ember had her talk with her will change the ending slide towards neutrality as well. Given the 64x new slides this could actually be happening.

Other than what Demon got in terns of story, Legend was the only mythic path to receive a full quest. There are some touch uos for others. Like Swarm can now gobble up the Hand's heart. But Gold Dragon went on with nothing new or improved.

[EXEC_PAJA_/.]

I would actually use Nocticula as an example here. She, a demon lord no less, can actually be chaotic neutral. From reading the aforementioned description, you can see a force of chaos which, when unleashed, chooses no sides. Chaos being the key here, and can be controlled and chained into obedience.

Nocticula didn't have to go full nun like the ascending demoness to be chaotic neutral. And to me, this is closer to actual morality than what the main protagonist got. For me to get chaotic neutral i have to switch to another mythic path that's less evil? That's just a poor excuse, especially for a game so heavy with fantasy lore. I could go the same route and say the same as Tieflings.

Nocticula being able to shift into chaotic neutral proves a point that a demon CAN actually be chaotic neutral, this is actually a more mature level of morality than the one that was presented in the main character's storyline. Writers need to get their kid-friendly ♥♥♥♥ together and actually write a story with some level of maturity. What, do they think everything in life is just black and white? Good and evil? Feels like a twelve-year old is writing the script.

Gold dragon didn't get any content because of the budget? Please, they're picking the generic good routes first and screw everything else. What's the issue with writing any chaotic alignment that's not the cliched good superhero or an angel? I honestly don't get it, is the issue the ending slides?

Edit 1: Also, to make it super clear, and quote again: "".....force to be feared—by enemies and friends alike..." . Again, a force of chaos that chooses no sides, no good, or evil, just uncontrolled chaos, that can be on good or evil. Chaotic neutral for this one description fits just right.

[Schlumpsha]

Time is a factor as well. Nocticula had untold eternities to find ways of becoming an actual deity rather than a demon. And even Arue had thousands of years in terms of character growth where Desna slowly but surely corrupted the succubus' mind. Your character doesn't have that time. So having a unique ending slide about your archpriest character slowly following Nocticula's new teachings would be enough imho.

Alternatively we would have required a complely new subpath, like Lich without transformation. Ideally all path should offer this choice. Angel becoming corrupted and fall from grace comes to mind. But implementing such things past developement is a huge undertake. Owlcat won't implement new mythic paths for the same reason.

[EXEC_PAJA_/.]

Saying certain characters are a special case because of reasons is not an excuse for the writer to be acting like a twelve year old while writing a script that takes place on a heavy fantasy setting. The main protagonist is also a special case that goes through apotheosis and through their arduous journey, obtains godhood. Godhood. A pretender demon lord actually becomes a proper demon lord through apotheosis. Now we're in the same square as Nocticula.

Again, once we start using the "Character one is a special case", we start getting these little contradictions. This particular little detail of Nocticula was used to make a point in the lore, a demon, even a demon lord, can follow the path of neutrality, but is still a force of chaos. She went to neutral, but remains chaotic. Sure, her journey was different, she had time, with time became a deity. The main character did so as well, less time but obtained apotheosis.

The main protagonist still follows the traditional "hero's journey", and their route still takes them to apotheosis. Sure, you can choose not to follow through, but it's there. If the hero figures out how to shift to neutrality or not is up to them, as Nocticula did. Same goes for apotheosis, you can actually choose NOT to go through it and reach another ending.

I could make an argument about player choice on the role-playing aspect of the hero's journey here and how the writer took away the player's choice in how they could actually choose to go through the path of neutrality or the path of evil, but i've decided not to.

Edit 1: Also, about subpaths, none would be needed in this situation. No new mythic paths, no change in appearance, the player is still on demon mythic path, all that would change is, the writer would have to act like a mature adult for this one part of the script and write. No new models or textures, except maybe for the ending slide? Well, the player would still be a demon, just a chaotic neutral one. Apotheosis would still be there as well.

[Super Cosmic Space Magnet]

I found this very frustrating too. I did a playthrough as a "I will destroy Areelu and the Worldwound at all costs, no matter what I have to do to achieve power" type of character. Given that the demon writing is all about rage, it made the most sense for my Bloodrager character to tap into that power to lead the crusade.

But you literally just get roadblocked out of getting to Act 4 because you've not been enough of a jerk. [Lawful] choices often take a harsh and pragmatic approach, but [Evil] tends to just be "lmao I guess I'ma kill this random guy in a basement for no reason except fun". Kinda broke the flow for me :(

[EXEC_PAJA_/.]

Originally posted by Super Cosmic Space Magnet:

I found this very frustrating too. I did a playthrough as a "I will destroy Areelu and the Worldwound at all costs, no matter what I have to do to achieve power" type of character. Given that the demon writing is all about rage, it made the most sense for my Bloodrager character to tap into that power to lead the crusade.

But you literally just get roadblocked out of getting to Act 4 because you've not been enough of a jerk. [Lawful] choices often take a harsh and pragmatic approach, but [Evil] tends to just be "lmao I guess I'ma kill this random guy in a basement for no reason except fun". Kinda broke the flow for me :(

I feel like this is a perfect example to what i was describing. You see how this person's role playing of the demon playthrough is chaos but not evil? This game's morality is so incredibly childish, at least in the demon path, that it can ruin playthroughs like these. It's basically the generic and kid-friendly "Oh you demon, you big bad" when the demon can be chaos unleashed, not just "the evil dude".

[Super Cosmic Space Magnet]

I think Devil is meant to tap into the kind of character I wanted to play, but to get there you have to pick either Aeon (which is about calmly and unemotionally returning the mortal plane to its normal state) or Azata (POWER OF FRIENDSHIP ) neither of which felt very.. Fitting. The murderous psychopath archetype does fit Demon best, but then it feels weird to even be leading the crusade.

I dunno, maybe my roleplay idea was too specific. Demon seems to be for angery ape-brained characters. If you wanna be evil but smart, you go Lich.

[Schlumpsha]

It is a shame that we are shoehorned into a demon of Wrath. Having a splitting path to become a demon of Sloth, Lust, Envy, Gluttony, Greed and Pride would have been so so sweet.

For what's worth: the Demon path we actually got did depict Wrath pretty accurate, all things considered. Still, I can only dream how Sloth would tackle the chaotic and evil Demon path. So much wasted potential... *sigh*

[EXEC_PAJA_/.]

My first playthrough was the azata, i had to stop and make another character because it felt too cringy, couldn't keep playing. Went demon, was surprised at how good it was written at the beginning. My character was like "obtain power, kick ass and obtain apotheosis. I do my own damm thing." I could play the game while being chaotic neutral, was good. But then, oh boy.

Yeah i was basically forced to go down the evil dude cliche. It went well at the start, it took me by surprise how it suddenly took a 180. But yeah, give the player a choice to role play, i'm all for it.

[Dinvan]

I have similar issues with the Lich. At a ceartain point you give a speach to your army, while doing that you get the choice to say you will do ceartain things once you close the world wound(like cede power back to the mortals) but it never reflects it in the ending slides. Small issue but always struck me as a missed opportunity.
I have no problem with people viewing my lich as evil, despite saving every one and doing "all the good things" but it would be nice if it at least reflected my choices some where....even just some text at the end of the game "bad boi lich, came, saw, conqured, became a god and kicked demon ass on their turf, not all the bad after all" lol.

[MightyPion]

Huh? Did something change? I was CN for most of my demon playthrough.

I would have liked not ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Drezen over that much but...

[Mycc]

Originally posted by Super Cosmic Space Magnet:

I think Devil is meant to tap into the kind of character I wanted to play, but to get there you have to pick either Aeon (which is about calmly and unemotionally returning the mortal plane to its normal state) or Azata (POWER OF FRIENDSHIP :6face:) neither of which felt very.. Fitting. The murderous psychopath archetype does fit Demon best, but then it feels weird to even be leading the crusade.

I dunno, maybe my roleplay idea was too specific. Demon seems to be for angery ape-brained characters. If you wanna be evil but smart, you go Lich.

And, if you want to go evil and Genious, you go Swarm-that-walks. It is pretty chaotic as well

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by Doctor Bright:

Nocticula didn't have to go full nun like the ascending demoness to be chaotic neutral. And to me, this is closer to actual morality than what the main protagonist got. For me to get chaotic neutral i have to switch to another mythic path that's less evil? That's just a poor excuse, especially for a game so heavy with fantasy lore. I could go the same route and say the same as Tieflings.

It's not a poor excuse. According to the lore as written, ONLY the mortal races of the material plane have the freedom to choose their own moral outlook on life. Beings of the outer planes do not possess that gift, as their alignment is hard coded into the fundamental essence of what they are.

Every single demon is inherently Chaotic Evil by nature. If something happens which causes them to deviate from being Chaotic Evil, then they cease to exist as a demon and transform into something else.

This happened to Nocticula when she became a goddess. By rejecting her Chaotic Evil nature, she lost her status as a demon lord, because she was no longer a true demon anymore.

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Likewise, if the Commander wishes to follow the path of the Demon, then they must pursue options which lead them down the road of being Chaotic Evil. You can not be a good demon, because a good demon doesn't exist.