Regil's alignment seems mislabeled (possible spoilers)

[G Willikers]

First of all not looking to have anything spoiled, I'm at the end of chapter 2 and if he does something down the road that makes the evil alignment more appropriate, I don't want to know about it. You can still certainly disagree I just don't want to know the specifics.

That said if you just take the guy at face value, lawful neutral seems way more appropriate than evil. Yes he regards his knights as expendable, but only in the sense that their lives can buy some degree of advantage over the enemy (which is the same way all soldiers, including the main character, have to think to be successful), he doesn't act with any sort of selfishness whatsoever. If anything his utter lack of selfishness should exclude him from the evil alignment.

You could argue that war itself is evil and being such a consummate soldier by association would make him evil, but aren't the commander, the queen, and Irabeth also engaged in constant warfare? The only real difference is they would feel sad about a village of innocents burned down for a few minutes before moving on, while Regil would take advantage of the demons being distracted to surround and annihilate them. That sort of emotionless efficiency is certainly concerning in other areas but it's not inherently evil unless it's used with evil intent, and Regil is fighting for the survival of the world and would be happy to sacrifice himself to do so (if happy is a descriptor you can apply to him).

To me he's neutral in that morality is entirely irrelevant to his decision making. You could also make an argument for him being good in that he is completely self-sacrificing to achieve his objectives, to the point of true self denial (I don't agree with that argument but it could be made).

Again maybe something changes during the story that makes him more outright evil (I hope not, it would be pretty clumsy writing in that case) but as it stands I completely disagree with the in game alignment for him.

[Aenno]

Diposting pertama kali oleh ExcaliburV:

I've never actually thought about it that way. I'd have to replay the scene again with this in mind to see how I feel about it, but you definitely raise a lot of good points here. Bit of a yikes on Regill's end, there. XD

That's actually quite simple.

Regill isn't sort of unstoppable and unbiased tactical computer he likes to fancy himself. He's utterly convinced that crusaders are weak and unable to sustain the combat, and his Hellknights are the pinnacle of combat capacity; therefore, any decision that would reduce Hellknights' capacity to the benefit of crusaders is wrong. He would better sacrifice his people then admit to their (and his) inferiority at any point, and, if this sacrifice wouldn't be enough, he would pin it on whoever, but not onto himself and his own. Remember attack to the camp before Lost Chapel? He's very much badmouthing crusaders for not watching the sky and so on; were hellknights preforming better? Weren't their leader kidnapped? He doesn't speak about that a lot. He accepts that Yaker made the right decision calling for reinforcements, and punishing him for doing it without an order; and he's doing it in so charismatic way (like, if you love magnificent bastards) that you don't even ask - well, why wasn't it ordered? it should've been an obvious idea. Yaker thought about it.

Or: remember what's his way of being distraction on Leper's Smile? He's literally pull his troops one by one to be eaten by hungry bugs, as they're used as tactical magnets - bugs are rush to eat his knights, and then he and his people burn them (with their comrade). It's brutal to the point where you're starting to respect it, it's stoic and disciplined, and also a utter tactical mistake - as Crusade's way here is to build a shield wall with clerics behind them and just heal people who are wounded (with cleric, who does understands the limitations of divine magic, as a commander). And it's working better.
Still, his reasoning when he asks for the job, if game texts are to be believed, is: "My superiority over the crusaders will not permit me to cover behind them", and he's never even thought about "ok, they have healers - let's ask them to support!"

Think about it. By actual test Sosiel is better commander then Regill is, because Regill is too prideful; but he's too prideful to admit that he's too prideful.

[GrandMajora]

Diposting pertama kali oleh ExcaliburV:

When the other unit arrived he gave them a pittance of water, a sack for bandages, and pushed them along their merry way to die in the Worldwound.

He also offered them a place within his order after they survive the gargoyle attack, to which they willingly accept. The clerics and paladins who were previously members of the other guy's unit were so distraught over how ineffectual his leadership was, that they considered joining the Hellknights to be a better alternative.

As for anybody who still thinks Regill is evil, just because of his cold and ruthless demeanor, you're forgetting that in a setting like Pathfinder, what matters in terms of alignment is not your actions, but your motivations for performing said actions.

According to 2nd edition (the most recent edition's) description of alignment, an 'Evil' character engages in acts of sadism and dominance because they enjoy it. They derive pleasure from watching other people suffer, which is something that Regill never seems to give off.

Yes, his words and actions generally tend to come across as offensive to others, but he's not doing it for the sake of amusement, he's doing it for the sake of efficiency.

On the other hand, 'Neutral' characters are described as being largely unconcerned with the grander scope of morality, and Lawful Neutral is concerned first and foremost with maintaining order and stability above all else. A Lawful Neutral character does not care if a law is good or evil, only that it is successful in keeping society functioning.

Let's not forget, that the final initiation ritual to become an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Hellknight is to summon a devil and kill it, as proof that you won't be swayed by their false promises and tempting offers.

[Aenno]

Diposting pertama kali oleh GrandMajora:

He also offered them a place within his order after they survive the gargoyle attack, to which they willingly accept. The clerics and paladins who were previously members of the other guy's unit were so distraught over how ineffectual his leadership was, that they considered joining the Hellknights to be a better alternative.

They didn't exactly considered it - they were offered, and it's working only if/because Commander of Crusade is shown to be indifferent to their ideals. If Commander is supportive, they answer Regill that he stands for everything that's abhorrent.
(also, this is desertion, and, actually, in modern military Regill would be shot for that offer)

Diposting pertama kali oleh GrandMajora:

As for anybody who still thinks Regill is evil, just because of his cold and ruthless demeanor, you're forgetting that in a setting like Pathfinder, what matters in terms of alignment is not your actions, but your motivations for performing said actions.

No, I think that Regill is evil because he, indeed, enjoys the acts of dominance (he even likes them when it's others who do that, but not onto him, of course), and he never hold himself to the same standard he demands from others, being ruthless and cruel to them, but not to himself - whatever he speaks about it.

[GrandMajora]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Aenno:

They didn't exactly considered it - they were offered, and it's working only if/because Commander of Crusade is shown to be indifferent to their ideals. If Commander is supportive, they answer Regill that he stands for everything that's abhorrent.
(also, this is desertion, and, actually, in modern military Regill would be shot for that offer)

Shot by who? And how are you being supportive of them by telling them to reject his offer? During my playthroughs, I chose the chaotic option of allowing the soldiers to make their own decisions and follow their own destinies. They chose to join up with Regill.

Also, something to keep in mind, is that A) this is taking place in a largely medieval fantasy setting, and therefor it has laws and customs which may be seen as outdated, and B) this takes place on an entirely different planet from Earth.

[Aenno]

Diposting pertama kali oleh GrandMajora:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Aenno:

They didn't exactly considered it - they were offered, and it's working only if/because Commander of Crusade is shown to be indifferent to their ideals. If Commander is supportive, they answer Regill that he stands for everything that's abhorrent.
(also, this is desertion, and, actually, in modern military Regill would be shot for that offer)

Shot by who?

Also, something to keep in mind, is that A) this is taking place in a largely medieval fantasy setting, and therefor it has laws and customs which may be seen as outdated, and B) this takes place on an entirely different planet from Earth.

In that situation? By presented superior commander of said troops. Same, well, about Mendev's code of military justice, which says about desertion: "Any deserter who is caught during an escape shall be summarily executed. Any deserter who is found hiding shall be arrested and sent to the front, so serve in a unit known as “the Condemned.” I doubt it would consider instigation of desertion something more allowed.
Which you know and already mentioned, when it was about Yaker.

Diposting pertama kali oleh GrandMajora:

And how are you being supportive of them by telling them to reject his offer?

Because they need someone here who would say them - guys, your ideals matter. Regill kinda botched the whole situation (and yes, it was him who absolutely screwed it), but he's charismatic enough for that being unnoticed. "After all, we survived under his command... right?"
Heck, he even was promising to them that, under his command, they would "never again feel like helpless mice in the talons of ravenous raptor", when it was his command operandi in all the situations we saw him commanding!
So, to show them support, you're using following: "You have already shown that you will easily sacrifice this people, using them as living shields for your precious knights. I won't let that happen. Let them join my army - at least I don't treat my soldiers as expendables".

[GrandMajora]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Aenno:

So, to show them support, you're using following: "You have already shown that you will easily sacrifice this people, using them as living shields for your precious knights. I won't let that happen. Let them join my army - at least I don't treat my soldiers as expendables".

Except you're saying that to Regill, not the people he's trying to recruit. Like I said, if you choose the chaotic option and let them make up their own decision, they freely choose to join with him. In fact, before you reach their cave, you come across one of their unit who is dying from her injuries. You could easily heal her, but she rejects the offer, because she has lost faith in the world.

Their previous leader was too idealistic, too much of a bleeding heart to do what needed to be done for the good of his people. And it ultimately lead them to a situation where they no longer believed in their cause and were willing to join up with something who embodies everything they swore to oppose.

He refused to abandon the wounded, even though they were being pursued by an enemy who had the capability of flight. That alone gave them a massive battlefield superiority, as they can (and do) drop right on top of their position and begin slaughtering everything within arm's reach.

Regill wasn't exaggerating when he said two more minutes would have gotten everybody killed. They did not have time to go around and heal everybody back to full health. They were already being attacked at that very moment, and he did not have time to argue with some bleeding heart, who would sacrifice both of their units just to retain the moral high ground.

They needed to move, and he was wasting what precious little time they had left. So Regill decided to remove his reason for standing around.

[Aenno]

Diposting pertama kali oleh GrandMajora:

Except you're saying that to Regill, not the people he's trying to recruit.

They're listening.

Diposting pertama kali oleh GrandMajora:

Their previous leader was too idealistic, too much of a bleeding heart to do what needed to be done for the good of his people. And it ultimately lead them to a situation where they no longer believed in their cause and were willing to join up with something who embodies everything they swore to oppose.

Their previous leader saved his squad in days without supplies in Worldwound; then he decided to save Regill's ass becaue he's an ally after all; then he sacrificed himself to protect Regill's retreat because Regill doesn't even thought about that.
Their previous leader was ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ awesome.

Diposting pertama kali oleh GrandMajora:

He refused to abandon the wounded, even though they were being pursued by an enemy who had the capability of flight. That alone gave them a massive battlefield superiority, as they can (and do) drop right on top of their position and begin slaughtering everything within arm's reach.

Yes. So, for starters, at Regill's place I'd retreat into defensible position from the very beginning.

Diposting pertama kali oleh GrandMajora:

Regill wasn't exaggerating when he said two more minutes would have gotten everybody killed.

He absolutely was. Crusaders survived days fighting this flying creatures in Worldwound without supplies, this exact combined force fought against this flying creatures for some time, presumably for hours at least - and now, Hellknights would be utterly destroyed by this very enemy in minutes if they would carry people who can later be used? Yeah, sure, with commander like Regill they would.
(and they would if Commander wasn't bailing them out, being bleeding-heart, you see; we know what happens if he's, like, "that's your problem, pal" to Yaker's plea)

[Binary Star]

Diposting pertama kali oleh GrandMajora:

Diposting pertama kali oleh ExcaliburV:

When the other unit arrived he gave them a pittance of water, a sack for bandages, and pushed them along their merry way to die in the Worldwound.

According to 2nd edition (the most recent edition's) description of alignment, an 'Evil' character engages in acts of sadism and dominance because they enjoy it. They derive pleasure from watching other people suffer, which is something that Regill never seems to give off.

Except Regill's alignment was decided by 1E guidelines, which state "Evil implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master."

Neutral characters would make more rational decisions than Regill does. He throws lives away when they could easily be saved, he under supplies soldiers assisting him, he criticizes others for making the same mistakes he does, and he overall places more importance of things being done the way he believes them to be correct than things actually running as efficiently as they could. He's immensely prideful of both himself and his order, supports slavery and other forms of the "strong" oppressing the "weak", does show some enjoyment of others suffering, and places more value on his methods working than actually winning. Nothing he was doing was going to close the Worldwound or make any more of a dent than the previous Crusades did. Anything his methods accomplish is because you accomplish them for him.

He's evil because his methods are evil and he both knows that and actively supports them over other methods that would be more useful. Sometime he's right, often he isn't.

[GrandMajora]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Binary Star:

Except Regill's alignment was decided by 1E guidelines, which state "Evil implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master."

Well, that does make the argument in favor of him being evil easier to defend, but it kind of brings the whole concept of Lawful Neutral into question. Since LN is supposed to be the alignment that doesn't care about the methods, as long as the system remains functional.

I still have yet to see any evidence that supports Regill takes pleasure in watching others suffer, though. I have played this game and beaten it on every Mythic path, as well as Legend and gotten the secret ending on all of them. I have 1,137 hours of play time on record as of the time of writing this.

So needless to say, I've had a lot of time to explore the game with Regill in the party as one of my companions. And I can not think of any instance in the game, where he just hauls off and decides to inflict unnecessary suffering upon others, just because he would find it amusing.

In my experience, every time Regill took action, it was because he had a job to do, and other people's crap was getting in the way of fulfilling that job. Or worse, they decided to lecture and chastise his methods of how he accomplished his goal, but failed to achieve better results themselves. In other words, they were spouting empty platitudes about morality, while Regill was actually getting me results.

[Orion Invictus]

Diposting pertama kali oleh GrandMajora:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Binary Star:

Except Regill's alignment was decided by 1E guidelines, which state "Evil implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master."

Well, that does make the argument in favor of him being evil easier to defend, but it kind of brings the whole concept of Lawful Neutral into question. Since LN is supposed to be the alignment that doesn't care about the methods, as long as the system remains functional.

I still have yet to see any evidence that supports Regill takes pleasure in watching others suffer, though. I have played this game and beaten it on every Mythic path, as well as Legend and gotten the secret ending on all of them. I have 1,137 hours of play time on record as of the time of writing this.

So needless to say, I've had a lot of time to explore the game with Regill in the party as one of my companions. And I can not think of any instance in the game, where he just hauls off and decides to inflict unnecessary suffering upon others, just because he would find it amusing.

In my experience, every time Regill took action, it was because he had a job to do, and other people's crap was getting in the way of fulfilling that job. Or worse, they decided to lecture and chastise his methods of how he accomplished his goal, but failed to achieve better results themselves. In other words, they were spouting empty platitudes about morality, while Regill was actually getting me results.

The game regularly describes his cruel smirks (as a result of hurting people), and he himself occasionally remarks that killing certain enemies (Kiranda comes to mind) will bring him pleasure.

[GrandMajora]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Orion Invictus:

The game regularly describes his cruel smirks (as a result of hurting people), and he himself occasionally remarks that killing certain enemies (Kiranda comes to mind) will bring him pleasure.

Why wouldn't it bring him pleasure? Kiranda is a succubus, a demon who's entire MO is to seduce mortals, enthrall their minds, then drain them of their life force and move on to the next. Killing her would make the world a better place, and isn't that the same type of dopamine rush that all these 'hero' types usually get from thwarting evil?

[Aenno]

Diposting pertama kali oleh GrandMajora:

I still have yet to see any evidence that supports Regill takes pleasure in watching others suffer, though. I have played this game and beaten it on every Mythic path, as well as Legend and gotten the secret ending on all of them. I have 1,137 hours of play time on record as of the time of writing this.

...because you literally going to ignore it again, like you did in 1137 hours, and when he does, well, "it's just normal dophamine rush all good characters are pursuing doing good deeds."

[Orion Invictus]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Aenno:

Diposting pertama kali oleh GrandMajora:

I still have yet to see any evidence that supports Regill takes pleasure in watching others suffer, though. I have played this game and beaten it on every Mythic path, as well as Legend and gotten the secret ending on all of them. I have 1,137 hours of play time on record as of the time of writing this.

...because you literally going to ignore it again, like you did in 1137 hours, and when he does, well, "it's just normal dophamine rush all good characters are pursuing doing good deeds."

Pretty much. Gotta "both sides" this thing, apparently.

[G Willikers]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Orion Invictus:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Aenno:

...because you literally going to ignore it again, like you did in 1137 hours, and when he does, well, "it's just normal dophamine rush all good characters are pursuing doing good deeds."

Pretty much. Gotta "both sides" this thing, apparently.

Are you seriously accusing someone of both sidesing an argument about a fake character in a video game?

[Orion Invictus]

Diposting pertama kali oleh G Willikers:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Orion Invictus:

Pretty much. Gotta "both sides" this thing, apparently.

Are you seriously accusing someone of both sidesing an argument about a fake character in a video game?

No, I'm pointing out someone has essentially said the good-aligned characters and the evil-aligned characters are the same. Hence, "both sides".