Rogues: Rowdy vs Knife Master

[Makeshift]

Ignoring how either subclass stacks up against other options on hard/unfair, is there a consensus on how rowdy (with all VS-related feats and mythics) compares to a knife master (with all kukri/TWF-related feats and mythics)? Both seem destined to be dips, so this is also a bit of a "THF vs TWF" question

I've seen a few PnP-based discussions online, but this game has a few significant divergences besides just the bugs lol

[Conquista]

both classes are better for dips

they have the same party support
rowdy has better defense options because vital strike also works with reach or range weapons

rowdy can go str or dex depending on weapon
knife master should stick to dex to fulfill twf feat prequisites, unless you have slayer or ranger levels

damagewise both are pretty good in the early game, lategame hitting enemies and sneak immunity might be problematic

hitting for rowdy is a bit easier if you go true strike + vital strike combo with alchemist or sensei

thf vs twf pretty much depends on your available stat spread and feat selection, making a working thf build is alot easier than doing twf

[PuppYofDOOM]

Rowdy is usually subclassed for ppl that wanna twohand oneshot stuff but arent going fighter, getting mythic tricksterpath.

While a buffed 2h fighter can get like 5k damage sneak critting everything.

Other builds can benefit. Like a magus.

But a vital strike crit cann do like 200 damage early game pre and around drezen.

Vital strike really is. Crazy. But you must ensure youre gonna hit.

[amills1]

There was one build I saw where they gave their character enough levels in barbarian to gain pounce via animal totem. This allows a full attack after a charge. Then add the mythic ability, mythic charge which adds and extra 1d6 per mythic rank. This applies to every attack that hits and since you are making a full attack it can be a lot of damage.

That being said, I was doing a lot of damage with vital strike last game and that was when I was only playing as a ranger and not even getting the extra damage from vital force.

[LordSith]

Rowdy can oneshot most enemies and boss with his critical up to 1500 damage. So I don't see a real comparison here.

[Frostfeather]

Rowdy is usually doing more damage earlier in the fight, which makes things safer for your group. And they can do that at range, which makes it safer for them. It's just too good vs Knife Master when you do it right.

[Makeshift]

Thanks for the input, everyone.

Atm, I'm actually running both, and I'm pretty pleased with the results early game (mid Act 2, level 7). They're both dips and have different end goals, but so far the rowdy setup looks like a decent dreadful carnage setup, whereas the knife master is making a surprisingly good main tank. All subject to change as I progress, of course, but here are the rough layouts of each:

Rowdy: 1 monk/3 THF/ 1 Instinctual Warrior/2 rogue (plan to go to 11 for VS feats, then leftover in vivi for strength mutagen and up to 9d6 sneak). There was some alignment play to get monk and barb (during THF levels), but it could've also been done by dropping monk and taking 2 IW. I used monk for a free crane style, because it for some reason still applies to 2h. Sits at 30 AC outside of combat and can reliably VS while fighting defensively and power attacking thanks to rage (and picks up 1 more AC due to wisdom jump). Uses fauchard for reach (not exactly optimal feat-wise, but can't argue with the results)

Knife master: 1 monk/ 2 Arcane Enforcer (eventually 3)/ 3 rogue (finesse training)/1 vivi (this is where all the rest will go after third AE). Sits at 34-38 AC out of combat. Would've loved to copy the barb trick above for the +2 attack and extra wisdom for AC, but dex mutagen would've made it mostly pointless

Both will probably be reworked closer to mid-game if all the reports about enemy immunities are accurate, or at least the rowdy setup. But they're holding up well and putting up pretty good numbers for now. Trickster path will definitely be used for added crit

[amills1]

The one concern I have about either is that, late game, enemy AC is really high and I found that only full BAB characters were hitting reliably. Theoretical damage output doesn't matter if you can't hit.

[Frostfeather]

Originally posted by amills1:

The one concern I have about either is that, late game, enemy AC is really high and I found that only full BAB characters were hitting reliably. Theoretical damage output doesn't matter if you can't hit.

Someone mentioned it earlier, but an Alchemist or Sensei party member (maybe something else even?) can give them True Strike, or the Rowdy Rogue can use Quickened True Strike themselves if you've multiclassed into something with access to it. Quicken through Draven's Hat or a Rod. Or I guess you could use scroll/wand if you really wanted, too.

So Rowdy wins again because obviously it doesn't matter that True Strike only lasts for one hit when you're only relying on one Vital Strike. Take Always a Chance to ensure you probably won't even miss on a 1.

[amills1]

Quickened true strike is the main method I'd expect to use. Having an alchemist feed you the spell isn't great in terms of action economy IMO. Scrolls and wands I wouldn't rely on (are there even wands that cast that spell) as you'd be casting one turn then attacking on the next. It's a pity you can't make potions of true strike.

[Makeshift]

Originally posted by amills1:

The one concern I have about either is that, late game, enemy AC is really high and I found that only full BAB characters were hitting reliably. Theoretical damage output doesn't matter if you can't hit.

If an extra +4 to attack is that much of a deal breaker, the game's even more broken than Kingmaker lol

I also play turn-based, so the action economy is a bit different. Buff/debuffs aren't the micro nightmare they are without it, and "buff bots" (ahem, Daeran lol) aren't as much deadweight outside of key situations

[amills1]

Well, it is only boss type fights that have this problem. But a problem it is - if a character isn't a spell caster, and they can't hit their target, they aren't going to be very useful.