Camellia (spoilers)

[Mesond]

I'm going to get into Camellia's compaion quests, why they're flawed and what I think could have been done differently to improve on that. This is the worst compaion quest I've done in the game. Which is a shame. Because it has potential to be good if certain events had happened just a little bit differently. There's other factors at play that get rather technical. Suffice to say even a worshipper of a blood god will respect you if you challenge them without resorting to violence becuase you can target their will and moral to break them instead. Whch in turn improves them after exposing them for the weak hypocrite that they are. Which is logic that can also apply to real life situations too. A talent and skill many people will not possess. I only know this because I've been in volatile situations I've had to defuse. So, when I see Camellia, and can not say what I beleive would resonate with me, then it gives me the impression the devs simply weren't capable of coming up with reasons to get through to her. Which is made most clear in her last quest chain.

The first quest actually isn't as flawed as it might appear, considering what she's like and what brought her to the point of making targets. Which I'll get into later. From the very moment I met her I knew something wasn't right when she was next to that dead body. I know a cover story when I see one. Fast foward to the first events where she lures someone to kill them. Not much to say here. She's lyng about her reasons but she enjoys taking out her frustrations on a stranger. Which actually has some good reason and sense in some ways. There's a certain strength/weakness/challenge to it. Wenduag actually goes about it in a more honest manor. Camellia however has lived a lie and has grown too used to them. To the point she fools herself. Wenduag knows the importance of challenigng each other. Making the situation known and aware. This is something Camellia is more ignorant about. Which is actualy believable for her character. So thus far the pieces fit together. Wherever you like it or not is another matter. If the reasons make sense then that's the foundation for a good story. I didn't want her to keep killing so I will continue from that choice.

Second Camellia event. She wants to kill some guy in a brothel in hell. I don't know what a whatever you call it is (the thing starting with H). Something about a "Seemingly sentient being". But even here a "I-robot" case can be made. It's either that or a real person. Either way we arrive and it's in the image of Camellia's adoptive farther. Again it's either letting her kill or don't. Under the guise of her so called spirit. This is basically the exact same choice in her first quest. Just with different flavor.

Third Camellia quest. This is where it gets interesting. The design was in place but the execution was flawed. Considering it can end with executions that's not even a metaphor. There's Camellia's adoptive farther explaining himself, claiming responability for the events of what happened in the past. I'm hooked. This is good build up. He says he wants to talk. Camellia, despite being about to kill him, says "talk" through gritted teeth and showing how tense she is. That's good. So far it's all good drama and flare. Reaons out there. Cases made. Camellia questions and wonders why. Great. Realistic so far. And then it kind of... stops. Just like that. Either you tell Cam to not go through with it, at which point she'll tell her farther to get lost (which itself is fine, but there's no talking in between about it between the characters. Wenduag and Lann was done much better) or she kills him. Then you round everyone up to kill the staff, despite the fact anyone of them could easily run off without being in restaints even though they're there in the basement. It's either that or you HAVE to kill Camellia. Unless you let her murder beforehand, even after she had technically done so. With NO other option. This is the point it becomes very flawed. There's no "Do what you want" or "I won't be judgemental or take sides" option. Which you can do in 95% of other events in the game, baring a few exceptions. And even then if you do the right things you can find something that benefits everyone somehow, such as letting Mengho go so another succubus is more understanding and no longer making you a target. Because I can go "This is the situation" instead of "I do it for the greter good or kill you". It's also too sudden about how she lies to you again but then tells the truth RIGHT after, regarding her amulet. There's also no "You outplayed me" responses, which could have gotten "No grudges" established. Wenduag in comprision can challenge and be challenged and make it about ones own strength/weakness. You either catch on or you don't. It's your trained eye or lack of it. We can't say anything like this with Camellia. NO matter how high our diplomacy or perception is. This in turn makes the player come across of as a dunce that can be easily duped and taken advantage of. Even if they already showed and proved that's not the case many times over in every other event. The only way that really makes sense is if the player then goes "I played along" at some point (if high perception/diplomacy).

With all that stated what Camellia's final quest suffers from is a case of "black and white" choices. This, combined with the lack of conversation between Camellia and her adoptive farther when a choice is made, ends up making the final quest less relatable. We also do not see enough of Camellia's reasons/back story, and what little there is of it is very subtle. Camellia was sheltered all her life and every decision was made "for" her by her adoptive farther. The killing is a result of the held in tension due to never being "allowed" to express herself. One little thing. Then another. Put on apparences. Tell them what they want to hear. Put on a show. Lie after lie. Lying so often that you beleive your own lies. Until finally she breaks and snaps. First with the dog, then with others. Her farther had good intentions, but that's the problem. It's HIS intentions. She was never allowed to find her own path. And thus why she ended up in the situation she's in. Confused, at a loss, finding pleasure in what she can because it's the only honesty she knows.

In that light Camellia had a lot of potential to be a well written character. If these reasons were fleshed out more. But because there's not enough exposition, and because we see less of her then anyone else, we don't get to see this. Which ends up with the flat result instead.

[seeker1]

MHO: she's there to confound expectations.

Yes, you can't figure out what's really going on with her till Act 5. The stuff she told you before were lies.

No, there's no way a good character can redeem her or talk her out of her "hobby". You kind of are given three choices. Kill her, bench her/boot her, or ... rationalize it the way Anevia did earlier? "She is useful" even if psychopathic?

Oh I get why she wants to murder daddy. Electra complex all over the place. A homonculus standin is not gonna cut it. But then, of course, she needs to murder the servants too, and wants you to participate in the spree.

Even if you're evil and have done worse things - you won't get a happy ending with her even if you're romancing her. "Let's be Natural Born Killers together." It never works out. Epilogue is always the same.

Is that good or bad writing? I think she's written to confound expectations. There's a demon in your party that can be redeemed. She is the half elf who cannot be saved or redeemed. Not everyone can be saved. She's the punctuation point to that sentence.

[CloudKira]

Would be cool if a Trickster could optionally turn her into a clone of daddy, fuse her with her daddy or turn her into a talking furniture...maybe a talking rapier.

Or worse...give her an actual conscience! :)

Would be also nice to bully her around after turning her into an undead as a lich and mock her for believing that the Lich MC cared about her as more than a tool.

An Aeon could also troll her nicely:

Aeon: You are a mistake.

Camellia: Wh...whats goin...??!! *disappears*

Aeon: I retconned your very birth. :)

There should be more options to decide her fate.

The ending also needs a bit more variety whether its a happy one or not. Its kinda bland.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by Taramafor:

I'm going to get into Camellia's compaion quests, why they're flawed and what I think could have been done differently to improve on that. This is the worst compaion quest I've done in the game. Which is a shame. Because it has potential to be good if certain events had happened just a little bit differently. There's other factors at play that get rather technical. Suffice to say even a worshipper of a blood god will respect you if you challenge them without resorting to violence becuase you can target their will and moral to break them instead. Whch in turn improves them after exposing them for the weak hypocrite that they are. Which is logic that can also apply to real life situations too. A talent and skill many people will not possess. I only know this because I've been in volatile situations I've had to defuse. So, when I see Camellia, and can not say what I beleive would resonate with me, then it gives me the impression the devs simply weren't capable of coming up with reasons to get through to her. Which is made most clear in her last quest chain.

Camelia is a born psychopath. During the late portions of her quest, it's revealed that she started out killing and mutilating stray animals, then moved on to family pets, and eventually started going after people once she got older. She has absolutely zero emotional attachment to Horgus, even though he provided her with everything she could possibly desire in her life, and used his influence to hide her activities from the public.

The reason why Horgus kept her locked up in the shelter of his mansion, is because he knew how much of a psychopath she was, and feared the scandal it would cause if her activities were to be publicly revealed. He locked her away for the people's protection, just as much as he did for Camellia's.

Her own mother realized what a monster she was, and tried to smother Camellia in her sleep, but Horgus stopped her, accidentally killing her mother in the process when she fell and hit her head on the furniture.

As Camelia reveals, Horgus was nothing more than a tool which she exploited so she could kill with impunity. And now that the Commander has accepted her into the group, and is practically the most powerful person in Mendev, she doesn't need Horgus anymore.

In her ending slides, even if you have a good relationship with her, there are two cases where she's tempted to murder you. The first, she tries to stab you in the heart, and then flees the country to become an assassin in a distant land, while the second has her abandon you while leaving a note saying she doesn't want to be tempted to kill you.

In her ascension ending, Camelia finally loses her passion for killing, but not because she became a better person. It's because killing people is so easy now, that it's become boring. The psychotic serial killer got BORED with how easy it was to murder people!

You can not reason with somebody like her. You can't diffuse the situation, or calm her down. She kills for pleasure, quite literally, as the act of murder and cannibalism turns her on. Camelia is 100% out of her damn mind.

[Mesond]

No one is "born" a psychopath. It's the upbringing and reasons that cause people to do what they do, for better or for worse. I do know psychology. Remember, her farther was controlling her, telling her to hide. It puts people, teenagers more so, in a situation where they feel like the have no choice. This circles back to options. But of course people won't know them due to denial and such. People learn to enjoy the worst, because if they don't then they wallow in despair and misery. So for all of Camelia's flaws she's at least not curling up in a corner and crying about her fate. Camelia may even be killing just to know she has that choice. A choice that people like you will keep going "That's wrong" about, which only serves to cause people to do bad things in the first place. I'm not just talking in games. I'm talking in real life too. I've seen it happen too many times. Why would someone NOT be a killer? Why would someone do anything for you if all you do is look down on them? What reason do you GIVE them? Getting the idea?

A character like Wenduag you will see this with. She gets the screen time. Camelia doesn't get that screen time. This means that in order to go into the reasons for her personality she'd have to have much more screen time. So it's a catch 22 situation. The game would have had to have delayed release to add that. At this point we're kind of screwed. But what could have been done just a little bit differently to add and expand on the entertainment value?

It's the violation of choice which leads to people doing things. The farther becomes pretty much suicidal (camelia sent a note about killing him. He's accepting of it). He's willing to accept his death at his daughters hands because he knows he messed up and sees himself as a lost cause. So should we kill him too then? With enough reasons and logic you can get through to people (doesn't mean "See things my way". Just means "Consider something different".) It's not about "saving" them. It's about stating cause and effect. Action, reaction, result. And covering "why". This part right here is very well done. It's what comes after that causes things to flop.

Genrealizing and making claims of being made insane or out of your mind also don't work. it's generalizing and an excuse to dismiss the real reasons when in all likyhood you don't even know them. How can you possibly know what somoene is like if you don't know them? It's generalizing and not addressing specifics. It's not helpful, it doesn't address specific situaitons. Think about how a real person gets brought up and people get tossed out of windows in real life. "Out of their mind"? It would be accurate to say those people don't have peace of mind. But why? WHAT causes people to be pushed over the edge? WHO caused it? WHY did it happen? In Camelia's case, her controlling farther. No one here knows exactly why she killed the dog (perhaps the first kill). What we do know is that she also remembers the dog fondly. Enough to bury them. Chances are Camelia's farther was doing his "I control you and do what I say because it's for the best" thing which sent Camelia over the edge and caused her to lash out. And while what Camelia did is drastic I can assure you that if you push anyone like that over and over, day after day after day, they too will get to a point where the break, snap and lash out. Push someone, anyone hard enough and it will happen. Pretending you're immne to it will only make it more likely to happen. So keep that in mind above all else. It's actually better to push someone over the edge with intent then without because at least then people know what they're doing. So imagine the harm/danger when people don't even know any better. Where's the choice? Who's presenting the options? Again, her farther.

To put it as simply as I can, the lies and secrets cause ignorance and confusion which fuel dread and anger.

A character in another game that might come somewhat close would be Lu Bu from Dynasty Warriors. He too had bad foster farthers. Which lead to wanting to be in control of his own fate. So he takes over a castle, then the leaders take it back and he's beheaded with the claim of "He can't be trusted". Well... He did have horrible foster farthers. Compare this with Camelia. It's a result of bad upbringing and a bad parent (WOTR even makes this clear when Camellia asks the player what they think of her farther). In Lu Bu's case they only wanted to use him. In Camelia's case her farther actually does care but his approch is flawed and backfires. This would be because of his fearing the worst of being seen for what he (and his family) actually is. In short it's a life of fear. At this point it's the old "Fear leads to anger" quote from Star Wars. Dark side. etc.

Make no mistake, I'm not saying I want to "stop" Camelia from what she does. She can chop up as many people as she likes if that's what she really wants to do (doesn't mean I'll approve or not say anything about it though. eg: We can do this with Wenduag). But at no point does the player get the opportunity to really push her and ask the hard questions.

Does the player suddenly switch from "Super observant" to "complete dunce"? No other compaion throws me off like this. The reason isn't just "Camellia". It's "The player not having any options to challenge her". Options we do get with other secret keepers (every one actually), like Regil, wenduag and Daemen. The simple fact is that it's done better with these characters. They're more fleshed out with reasons made known. Adding to the entertainment value. There's closure here. We don't have to make black and white choices to do it either.

By presenting only the "I'll join in kiling" and "I'll attack you" it's locking the player into decisions that are too "white" and "black". That's what I take issue with. Have those options but present the middle of the two. Otherwise it makes chaotic and neutral rather pointless in regards to the situation. Normally the game does a good job of covering every area. But here it's very forced. I'm not blaming Camellia or the farther. I'm blaming the situation. JUST the situation. This specific key moment where we could have the final piece added in to make the companion and their quests more entertaning if their had been just a little more here. Or perhaps some more afterwards with Camellia talking with the player after events.

The problem with confuding expectations is that this happens with others as well. Except with everyone else we get to know the reasons with a sense of closore. Considering we get plenty of other characters that confund us (regil was a surprise to be sure) then I don't see how that can serve as a sufficient counter argument. I think what's actually happened with Camllia is that she was basically left in the game with the final polish not being done. That makes much more sense then intentionally having her be a flat two dimensial character when everyone else has their reasons presented to us.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by Taramafor:

No one is "born" a psychopath. It's the upbringing and reasons that cause people to do what they do, for better or for worse. I do know psychology. Remember, her farther was controlling her, telling her to hide.

Bull, you're discounting things like neurological disabilities. Things which are a product of biology, rather than psychology, and something you can't just be trained out of, or fix with medication.

You say that murder was her outlet for expressing herself? I'm sorry, but if you're someone who 'expresses' themselves by stabbing somebody 37 times in the chest, ripping out their organs, devouring them, and then spends the rest of the night looking for sex, then you deserve to be locked away from society.

Camellia was torturing animals from a very, very young age. You can't use 'oh, her father kept her in the house all day' as an excuse for that. Five year olds don't mutilate animals just because they feel lonely.

Once again, Horgus wasn't controlling her. By his own admission, he bought her everything she ever asked for. Every toy she ever wanted, every piece of clothing. He bought her the best tutors, and he even bought her fencing lessons... as stupid as that idea was in hindsight.

Hell, he even sacrificed people to her, in the hopes of keeping her bloodlust in check. Horgus did everything in his power to keep Camellia happy. Both Horgus and Camellia's mother were aware that she was a danger to the community. That's why Horgus locked her away, and why her mother tried to kill her. This had nothing to do with Camellia being a home schooled child.

She was just ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up from the start.

[Conquista]

i don't know mate, the moment you decided you won't kill her in act 3, already proves that not only is she damaged but also are you

so only having the option to kill in act 5 is pretty much in line with that story path for your mc

[Mesond]

Bull, you're discrediting things like neurological disabilities. Things which are a product of biology, rather than psychology, and something you can't just be trained out of, or fix with medication.

You're assuming I'm discrediting. I'm perfectly aware of how brain and body chemicals affect the mind and body on a moment to moment bases which is actually not "fixed" because it's actually more in a state of "flux". Which brings us back to action, reaction, result. Which leads to peace of mind and the lack of it (eg: Mental instability). I know biology too. It ties in with psychology. I actually consider it unwise to avoid feeling the worst, though that of course can be overwhelming when there's no guidence/direction. The feeling of the "trapped thoughts" in ones head? When it feels like it's swimming? The compressed chest and tight throat? That's the brain chemicals going "what the hell is going on". Which can last for a long period of time when a situation doesn't change/improve, leading to the sensation of feeling trapped. With answers and honesty there comes stablity. Leading to peace of mind. Provided the logic can not be faulted. But it has to be pretty iron clad with people re-examining themselves. That won't happen if one is only judgeing them and telling what to think/do. Or making it about what they "deserve" (unhealthy to the extreme). That "violation of choice" I mentioned earlier is what leads to chemical imbalances. It fuels confusion/uncertainty/dread. Common wording like "should" and "You have too" will also factor in towards that. Every day common mistakes that causes this to happen so often. This is why corrections are important (not "what you think to be true". The logic has to leave zero room for error). To prevent dread and uncertainty/despair. It's actually very common for people to lie to themselves. Even if knowing the truth beforehand, if you tell yourself it enough times you can believe the lie (so I think you can imagine how worse it gets when it happens without even realizing). Even if they are mistakes it's still causing the harm and danger. It's so often the spark/ignition. There can be multiple events like this so it's a matter of backtracking/rewinding to find the first event that triggered it all. You don't know what happened with Camellia in the first palce any more then I do.

What I DO know is patterns and how it's always the same song and dance even if there's different reasons. In order to get "them" to realize it though then "They" have to view it in their own perception. Which means re-examining yourself. We can't do this with camllia. We can with basically everyone else.

That's the biology out of the way. Now back to the topic at hand.

You say that murder was her outlet for expressing herself? I'm sorry, but if you're someone who 'expresses' themselves by stabbing somebody 37 times in the chest, ripping out their organs, devouring them, and then spends the rest of the night looking for sex, then you deserve to be locked away from society.

You do not decide for others. Let's get that very clear first and foremost. Try walking up to a volatile person in the street like that and that's a good way to get made a target. The "wrong to exist" approch is what fuels fear, anger and despair. For others as well as yourself. Warning you for your own safety (seriously, you'll get guns in your face for that). As for society, that's got its own dangers. Often done out of ignorance and stupidity. Honest monsters at least know what they do.

Too bad Camellia isn't honest.

The biggest danger with Camellia isn't the murder. It's the dishonesty. Makes trust difficult. Let's ask ourselves. How can we trust her not to target the player? Wenduag, despite being a killer doesn't shy away from responsibility. At least not with the player as long as you mantian the stance of no grudges. It just goes further then blame. Doesn't mean letting people get away with things. Does mean call into question. That's the difference.

Soo... Wenduag murders 3 people in a bar in plain sight and we can have a good talk about it, but with Camellia we basically go "Good intentions or kill you"? Do you see how strange this is?

As for why Camellia murders people it's the only way (that she knows of) that she can get out the pent up aggression/anger. Camellia feels trapped and needs an outlet. It might have been unintended at first with the dog (maybe. Maybe not. We jusst don't know enough). Regardless it became intended (due to getting used to it). Because if she doesn't get it out of her system she might just burn the world and destroy everything around her. If this is Camellia with the odd spot of murder then imagine how much worse it can get if she really boils over. I don't think you understand just how much worse it can get. What she's doing now? That's one thing. Blowing up the world and burning down everything around you when you're done to the point where you no longer even care for yourself? Compared to the alternative she's suppressing it as much as she can. In that light she's actually keeping herself in check in some ways. One can not simply hold it all inside without some way to channel it out somewhere. This is the only way she knows how too. Perhaps even taught. Think about it for a moment. Your farther will keep secrets at any cost. Loose lips are going to be sealed. Did Camellia start killing first? Or did Horgus?

As for torture that can actually be healthier. If you get someone to consider that you know something they don't then suddenly your life holds answers for them. This can stop someone from killing you (or even themselves). Better be more then "you deserve" though. That's not a good mindset to have if you want to get out alive. Hate has its place (challenging) but not pushing away. It's weakness. The sharks will smell blood. They will bite.

Camellia was torturing animals from a very, very young age. You can't use 'oh, her father kept her in the house all day' as an excuse for that. Five year olds don't mutilate animals just because they feel lonely.

Actually I can. I'm doing it right now. Your wording on that specific matter is a falsehood. See, you can argue with others, but if you get someone to question themselves they can't argue with themselves. It's not an "excuse". It's a "reason". You're overlooking factors. You actually just gave me a good example here.

Camellia was sheltered her whole life. Wenduag also had more opinions to challenge her due to her tribe (multiple viewpoints). Camellia only ever had her farthers viewpoint. The staff got rotated out daily. No one else ever stuck to have multiple opinions on events. This leads to one sided biased unchallenged viewpoints as a result. Ultimately this is the contributing factor. You have only yourself and what you know and so that is what you have to work with.

There's also the mother I suppose, but considering how she died it just serves as fuel to be hostile at Horgus. Living with the killer of your own mother? What I'm curious about if Camellia knew this beforehand or not. Yea, she's going to have pent up anger alright. Sadness and grief turns into anger. What's she going to do if not kill people? Who's giving her those options? I asked this before. It wasn't answered. I ask again. Killing is all she knows to get out her primal side. Your judgment won't change that. Your pushing away and rejection from fear does not change the facts. Either disprove what I have stated or otherwise acknowledge the possability.

Again I say if it's day after day where someone is having things decided "for" them (having it implied at least) they will break and lash out (feeling trapped leads to anger which leads to lashing out. And in that situation people WILL feel trapped). Camellia might not have been taught to kill but she was taught to lie, which leads to miscommuniation and heated arguments. Which in turn will lead to lash outs which can lead to killing. She show sgood self control but it's possible she didn't have it when younger and thus never allows herself to show her feelings/emotions outside of killing. Honesty and corrections is important. Something her farther did not teach her enough of. At the same time it's all Camellia knows. So it's what she'll remain with. Comfort zones can be dangerous because of this.

Once again, Horgus wasn't controlling her. By his own admission, he bought her everything she ever asked for. Every toy she ever wanted, every piece of clothing. He bought her the best tutors, and he even bought her fencing lessons... as stupid as that idea was in hindsight.

The admission of a liar and keeper of secrets. Keep that in mind. It's actually impossible to control what another person does (Something that can be overlooked. It often is). But he did influence her. By encouraging secrets and lies. He's made it clear over and over to the player. Horgus said he gave Camellia everything she ever ASKED for. Here's the thing. "Gilded cage". She's still a prisoner. Horgus only gave her everything... except her freedom (until, obviously, she's not locked in the house anymore. But at that point it's done). If you can't even "show yourself" how can you be "Accepted"? Despite Camellia's hostile reaction to Horgus she still cares enough to keep the secrets and face him directly. With a heads up and warning to boot. This is actually quite considerate of her (killer or not that's more then some so called "nice" people will do for you). Clearly we see that Camellia has had enough of being trapped and a prisoner, made clear with her reaction when she snaps back at him. The final meeting is more to tie up loose ends and confront the past. What someone ASKS for isn't the same as what someone might NEED. The two are very different things. The thought might be there to ask/inform but we all know the danger of lack of communication and not speaking up. Does Camellia seem like the type to be that honest and state what people might not like to hear? After being taught lies and secrets? In my opinon, and considering what we see of her so often, no. She holds things in. This is going to be much more common when she's younger as well (younger people are more ignorant by default). Part of the reason is because Horgus lets it happen. Perhaps even encourage it. He prefers to deal with secrets and lies. That is the example he leads by. That is the example that is followed. Let's also keep in mind that he's going to keep his secrets at any cost. The exception being the player since they're "in the circle" (plus we do save his life). So it's quite possible Horgus might have killed a few burglers to prevent loose lips himself. Which brings us to the next part.

Hell, he even sacrificed people to her, in the hopes of keeping her bloodlust in check. Horgus did everything in his power to keep Camellia happy. Both Horgus and Camellia's mother were aware that she was a danger to the community. That's why Horgus locked her away, and why her mother tried to kill her. This had nothing to do with Camellia being a home schooled child.

Not sure if Horgus "sacrficed" people. Let's think about this logically. He's going to keep his secrets at any cost. Is it a sacrifice if you have to kill a burgler to keep those secrets in the first place? Tossing them to Camellia is killing two birds with one stone. It wouldn't surprise me if he killed a few himself. The rest is already covered in the above. He's quite adamant about keeping the families reputation intact. And as Greybor says "reputation is everything". Look at it from that perspective. Like you, he's concerned about others.

But what if that fear is misplaced? no, people tend to believe "the worst" with no thought to anything else instead. Oh, the worst is there. That's not disputed. But that is only one side of the story. So what's the other side? Are you even trying to consider it? Or are you refusing to consider anything other then your own viewpoint?

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by Taramafor:

Not sure if Horgus "sacrficed" people.

In the past, some thieves attempted to break into the mansion and rob the place. After they were detained, Horgus threw them into the basement and let Camellia have her way with them. It is then stated, in no uncertain terms, that he would continue to lock people up down there so that she could satisfy her murder cravings.

There is a locked room in their house, which is just full of bondage gear and torture equipment. Given Camellia's personality, we can easily deduce that this room must be for storing her personal 'toys,' rather than something Horgus might use.

Your assessment that Horgus was keeping her locked away to protect his own interests is wrong. Horgus never acknowledged Camellia has his daughter, specifically because it would have tarnished the Gwerm family name. As far as anybody else knew, she was the daughter of a servant girl. She had no connection to Horgus, and her being revealed as a serial killer would not have stained the family name, since she was not part of the family to begin with.

Again, Horgus kept her locked away for everybody else's safety. He had nothing to lose by simply cutting her out of his life and abandoning her on the streets. But that would have given Camellia free reign to slaughter people without any oversight.

--------------------

One massive thing you're overlooking about this situation, is the existence and functionality of Pathfinder's alignment system. While it's true that D&D has attempted to heavily dial back on the alignment system, Pathfinder has not followed suit in that regard. Even if second edition did try to scale it back a bit (I'm not sure on that either way), this game is made with the 1st edition system.

In the Pathfinder setting, morality is not some nebulous concept that we as a society get to decide for ourselves based on subjective experiences.

Morality is a metaphysical force of nature, which composes the outer planes, and has straight forward, clear cut explanations for how they operate.

In the case of Camellia, she is Chaotic Evil, which is the alignment of the absolute worst examples of sentient beings in the multiverse. Unlike the Lawful and Neutral categories, Chaotic Evil does not need a reason to inflict pain and death upon the world. They do it because it's amusing to them. They derive pleasure from making other people suffer.

And in the case of Camellia, one of her battle cries is literally "your pain is my pleasure!"

Camellia isn't killing people because she's sad she never got to go outside as a child. She's killing people because she is screwed up in the head, and she needs to be locked away in an asylum, or sent to the chopping block.

[PuppYofDOOM]

OP.. I just dont like your analysis friend.


I find all of the Camellia scenario insanely close to home. Its exhilarating.

Especially since the women of my choice are always quite crazy violent and dangerous..

I never thought any game ANYWHERE would mirror a fragment of the insane violent woman type i choose to fall in love with. the answers the responses the choices that others cant see as ok.. Truely purely utterly delicious Chaos.

The fights the back and forths the insanity of it all. Love it. Its so genuine!




Go have ur predictable romances! I love the writer who did this. It is ground breakingly good.



Unfortunately there will be more square as hell bandwagon haters on Cam but..

I love the nuttyness and truely its incomparable to any romance ive had ina game and ima rpg nut. It feels authentic. Lord knows ive had so many passionate moments and heated arguments with crazy women in my lifetime.

[Conquista]

Originally posted by Taramafor:

Originally posted by Conquista:

i don't know mate, the moment you decided you won't kill her in act 3, already proves that not only is she damaged but also are you

so only having the option to kill in act 5 is pretty much in line with that story path for your mc

I get it. You're judgemental. It's not making you look smart or clever. It just shows how insecure you are.

You also didn't state why you made your claims. You also claim you don't know. Getting mixed messages here. Why do you believe I am damaged for being more understanding then someone that would only make targets? Killling people doesn't change "the sitatuon". Monsters will take their place. In the long run it's counter productive.

Say what you actually mean. That you don't approve. I'll have more respect for you.

stop overreacting mate, i'm talking about the mc you roleplaying in that playthrough, this is still a roleplaying game if you have forgotten, there is no mentally stable mc thats walks into camellias quest in act 3 and let her walk freely, she even confesses herself im that conversation that she thought she would be dead if you let her live

so calm down and don't take everything super serious and as an insult or people will judge you as insecure

[brownacs]

Originally posted by Taramafor:

No one is "born" a psychopath. It's the upbringing and reasons that cause people to do what they do, for better or for worse. I do know psychology.

There's no correct answer to this (psychology's a borderline pseudoscience) but the standard modern opinion's that about 50% of the total variance in ASPD (antisocial personality disorder; psychopathy's not actually a diagnosis) can be explained by genetic factors ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3920596/ ). It's hard to study because you really need identical twins who've been separated at birth.
It's also a really, really broad catch-all condition which I'd suggest is probably actually about a million different things which we just don't understand/have names for yet. It's not just textbook serial killers ( like Camellia ); they're still really very rare, even amongst ASPD sufferers.
I'd bet that there probably has been at least one person in the history of our species (I think there have been about 100 billion of us) born with an abnormal brain chemistry that was always going to produce results resembling the ASPD criteria.
Anyway to your OP: I also really hated that quest line. It honestly felt unfinished, like there were going to be more options but deadlines. Then again I feel that way about quite a lot of Acts 4/5. The difference in quality from Acts 5 to 1 when you start a new game after finishing an old one is really jarring for me every time...

[seeker1]

Ehhhh, the thread's marked spoiler, and there's tons of them in the sprawling text up above, I'll not bother with spoilerboxes.

Look, one thing I can agree with is that I prefer when players are offered more agency and options in handling situations.

So here's the thing. In Act 3, you can accept her explanation that she murderhobos because "the spirit" (Mireva) in her amulet demands this of her. I find this interesting in a variety of ways. Crazy people often kill because they claim "spirits and voices" demand them to do so. And this would be your go-to explanation, if she wasn't actually a shaman in a world in which spirits actually exist and communicate. It also plays into this common belief in anthropology in the 60s and 70s that real-world shamans in so-called "primitive" societies were basically just mentally ill and that's why they thought they could see and talk to spirits.

She is written so that a lot of alarm bells should be going off by Act 4. Pretending to naivete gets harder. If it's a nature spirit in that amulet demanding blood - uh, why did it get more hungry going into the Abyss? Why when you offer up a homonculus for sacrifice, it looks like Daddy Horgus? Oh, and why is that amulet with the spirit in it, apparently, hiding her real (CE) alignment?

So in some ways "the reveal" of Act 5 is not all that surprising. There is no Mireya. She's been lying all along. All the amulet does is help conceal her BS and alignment. The "spirits" aren't asking her to kill. It just gets her turned on. And unfortunately, all the demons you let her slaughter on the Crusade isn't cutting it for her. No, they gotta be innocent human victims like Horgus' servants.

BTW: the story with the dog ... that's ripped from the resl world. If you read up on Jeffrey Dahmer and other real world serial kilers, they often say they first started out with torturing and killing animals, then "graduated" so to speak.

All this now said ... I would have preferred a third option besides killing her or joining in her spree or passively watching her do it. Like maybe a conversation with Anevia along these lines. "OK. She is useful. I need her to finish our crusade. But, when this is all over, have your watchmen grab her and throw her in prison." Now who knows, she's pretty powerful at that point, maybe Anevia doesn't have the ability to keep her in one anymore. Might have to be magical stasis. But I would have taken that option.

It is kinda bothersome that the only possible endings for her (aside from ascension) is that she's still out there, doing what she does.

"Mental health" just isn't a thing in the world of Golarion, or I guess you could try and get her into some kind of treatment program. That said, there seems to be all kinds of curative magic that cures mental conditions, so ... eh, I guess that could be an option, too. After all, BG2 did have an asylum, even if of course you end up finding out Irenicus is now running it.

[CloudKira]

Maybe it was meant to show that some people cannot be fixed but as a result it ended up with Cam being the least developed character in the group and the one with least options for the Player Character to explore.

She ended up coming kinda flat.

A transition to Chaotic neutral who gets somewhat less brutal thrills but still ones that would be shunned by society would be rather interesting.

The ascended ending for Cam seems to imply that its less that Cam is addicted to killing but to thrills. She needs her rush. Its as if she was dying of boredom and needs an anti boredom fix. The harder the better.

Perhaps a DLC or an Enhanced Edition could develop Cam a bit more and expand upon the options available to the PC when interacting with her.

She kinda got the short end of the stick.

[Mesond]

It's hard to study because you really need identical twins who've been separated at birth.

I'll put it in simple terms "The son is not the farthter". Same goes for twins. At the end of the day your own expreince and your own choices.

We know Camellia kills. Let's move on from that. WHY? Anyone saying "just because" is making a weak counter argument that is devoid of reasoning and logic which goes against everything honesty stands for. All that does is prove how weak the counter argument is. Personally I could care less for law and order but I sure as hell value honesty and reasons. There's also one event that serves to trigger another. It's like... Dominos. They affect each other. Ignition. Spark. If careless, poweder keg. Boom. And it's so so easy to be careless.

Camellia didn't "just magically appear". She was, in a sense, "created". We all are. Based on our expreinces of others around us who affect us.

There's only one person that's influenced Camellia heavily. Making mistake after mistake. Horgus. No matter his inteintions he's taught her one thing. Lies. Lies that only serve to fuel misunderstandings. Lack of understanding will cause events to spiral out of control. This is what Camellia was taught. No complaint or excuse is changing that.

No matter how you're born you still are in an evironment. One that can "brainwash" you and get you to be "sheep". Are you even you at that point? Or have you been told what to think and beleive without giving it proper considiration first? Do you know enough about the "other side" to actually know this? You can control your own life even if it doesn't seem possible (pretty common for it to happen actually). But you have to try. REALLY try. This means incentive. Hooks. Goals. Thus why would Camellia do anything differnetly? No one's giving her a reason too. When someone that is "accepted" they're also more likely to consider your viewpoint, and thus see the logic in your reasoning. It gets people to want to listen. Be they calm and composed or hyper and bouncing off the walls (lawful vs chaotic). Moral allignment matters not. It's a simple basic matter of considiration. "I think of you. You think of me. We're affecting each other." And Caemllia does show quite clearly that she is receptive to that. Her exact wording is "You done something nice for me so I'll do something nice for you". Even sadistic monsters taking pleasure in suffering and death and worse is still going to go "I'll think if you since you're thinking of me".

In my experince and observation those dealing with secrets and lies don't have both eyes open. They buy into their own BS too much. Which brings us back to Horgus.

Horgus was responsble for what happened to Camellia's mother. It makes sense he would feel an obligation to look after her and raise her. All the clues are there. The dog grave. The basement. Camellia's buried mother. Caemllia lived there and was raised there. You don't just raise someone and go "This is for others". You get attached. It's also unknown if the dog event happened before or after Horgus started raising her, and I won't assume one way or the other on that matter. It's probably moot either way. He's still the one going "Secerts and lies are safer". It will mess people up (I know people in real life i've had to convince. Trust me, I get it). You can't cross reference with anything else because you never allow it. Wenduag always had the tribe. Multiple opinions to cross reference with each other. Lann to challenge her. Which is why she's more upfront with the player. Camellia has ONLY known Horgus. Single biased viewpoint. Free of being challenged or debated about. Misunderstnaidngs and then blamo, target time. The only person she might even glane at is Daemen (she'll dance with him), but because of "the other" and his need to keep that hidden the only thing connecting them is the desire to be hidden. There's a little dialogue that mentions it too.

Ultimately it boils down to Camellia being ignorant, confused and having limited options (no options means no choices. No one's giving her any to be frank). Which is going to happen when you're raised as a liar. That kind of environment will always do that. I've seen it happen over and over. The "Dishonest" one. Horgus lead by that example. Camellia followed that example. It only serves to fuel miscommunication, which is going to lead to anger due to lack of understanding. It creates conflict. It's a breeding ground for it. The lies you tell yourself will lead to having a few screws lose. Regardless of wherever it makes you a killer or not. Either you target yourself or you target others or both. Self delusion and denial and acting like you know better (eg: What's "safer" when it could be more dangious) when in reality you don't know enough will do that. What's the truth here? Caemllia has made it clear that she believes it's safer to hide. Where has it gotten her? Where did it get Horgus, who spent his whole life as a lie? Nevermind the murders. Slowly losing yourself like that? It's a fate worse then death. What about the lies that lead to it? Or are people turning a blind eye to that? Focused on the murders as they are.

As for taking pleasure in the pain of others there is a logic to that. It can be a positive healthy thing. There's a saying. "Control pain and suffering and you can turn it into pleasure". it's a making the best from the worst thing. Why shoud l I feel bad for an idiot that is only judgemental? If someone is only judging, begging, whining and look down on you then what's the reason not to enjoy what you can at thier expense beyond a "I'll punish you otherwise" which is a threat at you? What do you have to OFFER someone to give them a reason to not turn you into bloody red mist? If you learn to enjoy pain then you can also learn to endure more. Be stronger. More capable. More observant. More aware. Faster at adapting. It can be what keeps you alive when you really do need that kind of talent. Or save someone you care about. All because you think of "them" instead of "yourself". It just happens to benefit me when people know I keep them in mind.

Let's compare Horgus to Wenduag's farther. Wenduag kills her farther. Doesn't want to talk about it at first. Does so later. She's shut in and closed off until she's not. This is realistic. This is believable. Wenduag, despite also being a killer, knows better then to hold things inside (she'd see herself as weak if she doesn't confront). Camellia will hold things inside, but everyone has a breaking point until they have to get it off their chest. No exceptions. No one can hold out forever. Even people that isoalte themselves and want nothing to do with anyone and see only chaos will end up doing it. Where Wenduag knows that weakness, Camellia is too young and dumb to understand it. She hasn't had Wenduag's harsh upbringing. She's been too sheltered. At some point life and lemons will force you to learn at some point.

Let's quickly cover events in breif. Murdering. Check. Faces Horgrus. Check. Then never mentioned again. Check.

Does never mentioned again sound realistic?

With every other companion we're talking with them. There's more communication. We get more feedback/reasons as a result. This is legit the only exception (spot of murder, amulet was a hox. That's about it beyond Horgus himself). In fact with Camellia we seem to talk to her less then any other character (catching in the act isn't talking about events). I can't realistically tell myself that the last quest will never be discussed again if that's how the last quest ends in regards to Horgus. Horgus alive? Well, there's got to be concerns there. Horgus dead? Well, there's got to be concerns there. That's realistic.

If Horgus had been slipped in and actually been there in the brothal (with basically the same result in act 5. Just different location) it would have left room for act 5 without leaving that loose thread. This way we face Horgus and then talk about it afterwards while also dealing with events at the mansion. Of course the event itself would have to change, but I can easily come up with a different reason. Burn it down. Set it on fire. To burn away the past. The paintings weren't enough. That would provide more closure. Murdering staff optional. If going with the vindictive route it could be to "Burn away Horgus's legacy". If going in a more understanding route (influnced by the player) then it could be to lay the past to rest. It's not "good" enough to be white knighted. Yet not "evil" enough to be "black". Everyone has a sense of "grey" about them. It just doesn't seem that way when taking things at face value. It can take years or even decades for events to make sense in hindsight.

[marceror]

A couple of things -- Horgus is Camellia's biological father, not her adoptive father. I mean, he has gone to great lengths to hide that she is his daughter, so not sure why the OP thinks he adopted her. He pretty much did the opposite of that.

Next, it is "father" not "farther". I've seen that spelling error too many times in this thread, and feel it is worth correcting.

Lastly, this thread is largely a nature vs. nuture argument. The OP is strongly on the side of nurture. There are many scholars who would argue for nature, and many more who would reasonably argue for a combination of the two. I don't think anyone is going to solve this debate in this gaming forum thread, but feel free to try.