magic users worthless?

[Traveler]

A classes based on limited number of spells useless?

I ask because I just did a 25 round fight (outside the inn). My magic users ran out of everything but useless cantrips long before the fight was over. Should I just retrain everyone as a fighter?

[Much further on now and yes magic users are just fine; but they're nothing compared to my mounted paladin!]

[GrandMajora]

Messaggio originale di KellyR:

You just listed a bunch of mostly D&D based games. The players I'm talking about have never played any of them. They've played Final Fantasy, World of Warcraft, etc, where casters are all super blasters from day 1 and crowd control and buffs/debuffs are generally fairly weak by comparison.

There was a time when Shadow Priests in WoW used their Mind Control spell to troll people, by forcing them to jump off cliffs!

[KellyR]

Messaggio originale di GrandMajora:

Messaggio originale di KellyR:

You just listed a bunch of mostly D&D based games. The players I'm talking about have never played any of them. They've played Final Fantasy, World of Warcraft, etc, where casters are all super blasters from day 1 and crowd control and buffs/debuffs are generally fairly weak by comparison.

There was a time when Shadow Priests in WoW used their Mind Control spell to troll people, by forcing them to jump off cliffs!

Yeah, I've never played WoW specifically, I just assume that mages in it are like in most MMOs, they follow the "Mages are the spank component of tank and spank" philosophy and you get strong burst damage from day 1, with mana based casting. That was certainly the case for all the MMOs I have played, like DAoC, etc.

I mainly listed WoW because I know 90% of the planet has played it, even if I haven't. And of course JRPGs like Final Fantasy are stupid popular and almost universally use mages are nukers.

[Conquista]

final fantasy has alot of different games with alot of different mages( black, white, red, blue, green, summoner, time,...)
depending on the game, not all of them are good nuker or start out as good one from day 1

[revan1229]

Messaggio originale di KellyR:

Messaggio originale di revan1229:

Well, I agree that utility is the strength of low-level arcane casters. But you say the paradigm is different in "most CRPGs" when many CRPGs (including this one, BG, IWD, POE, etc.) aren't different and follow this pattern.

But you CAN expect them to be damage dealers like in other games, it just takes time for them to come online (another hallmark of these types of games - warriors are linear, wizards are quadratic). Why do you say that you can't expect it? You said Wizards shouldn't be throwing out nukes unless they've disabled your enemies, but death is the best CC. Surely you've seen the ridiculous damage that casters can do in this game? And being a DD is easier than ever here thanks to Abundant Casting, Ascendant Element, CB Sorc access, Sorcerous Reflex, etc. Not to mention MC caster's broken Mythic abilities.

Again, same thing with D&D-based games like BG. BG1's fireball ended whole encounters, and by TOB casters were tossing out 3 Horrid Wiltings at a time or spamming Dragon's Breaths with Improved Alacrity.

You just listed a bunch of mostly D&D based games. The players I'm talking about have never played any of them. They've played Final Fantasy, World of Warcraft, etc, where casters are all super blasters from day 1 and crowd control and buffs/debuffs are generally fairly weak by comparison.

They are CRPGs... You listed CRPGs and MMOs separate, so I assumed you were applying your logic to both? Also, you were referencing D&D, so I brought up D&D CRPGs.

In either case, you said that arcane casters shouldn't expect to be damage dealers and that CC/buffs trumped anything else that they can do, so my points still stand (as Wizards can apply buffs before combat, they have tons of slots to work with, and death is the best CC - outside of the early/early-mid game).

[GrandMajora]

Messaggio originale di KellyR:

Yeah, I've never played WoW specifically, I just assume that mages in it are like in most MMOs, they follow the "Mages are the spank component of tank and spank" philosophy and you get strong burst damage from day 1, with mana based casting. That was certainly the case for all the MMOs I have played, like DAoC, etc.

I mainly listed WoW because I know 90% of the planet has played it, even if I haven't. And of course JRPGs like Final Fantasy are stupid popular and almost universally use mages are nukers.

The difference between MMO's and D&D, is that the martial classes in those games have a bunch of different skills which, although not as flashy as magic spells, still give them the ability to keep pace with the spell slingers throughout the game.

In table top, however, this does not seem to be the case. The only features that you get for being a Fighter / Barbarian is that you get to hit the enemy slightly harder than you did a few levels prior.

Or at least, that's how it was before. Now 5th edition has included a bunch of sub-class options that you get to pick from at around level 3, that allow the martial classes to pick up some additional tricks besides just upgrading their sword arm.

[GrandMajora]

Messaggio originale di revan1229:

They are CRPGs... You listed CRPGs and MMOs separate, so I assumed you were applying your logic to both? Also, you were referencing D&D, so I brought up D&D CRPGs.

In either case, you said that arcane casters shouldn't expect to be damage dealers and that CC/buffs trumped anything else that they can do, so my points still stand (as Wizards can apply buffs before combat, they have tons of slots to work with, and death is the best CC - outside of the early/early-mid game).

Actually, even early on in the game, we can argue that spell casters can dish out some high damage. Cantrips such as Fire Bolt deals an initial starting damage of 1d10, and has a range of 120 feet. Compare that to the damage output of a Greatsword (2d6), which you have to get in close range to hit the enemy with.

And since it's a cantrip, the wizard can cast this spell an infinite number of times without needing to rest, and it's damage automatically scales with your level. Once you reach level 5, it increases to 2d10 damage, meaning it's nearly twice as powerful as a Greatsword.

The 1st level spell, Burning Hands, inflicts 3D6 damage in a 15 foot cone in front of you, and adds an extra 1d6 damage for every spell level beyond the 1st. Sure, you can only cast it 2 times a day at level 1, but by the time you reach level 5, you can cast the spell 2 times a day as a 3rd level slot, 3 times a day as a 2nd level slot, and 4 times a day as a 1st level slot, all before you need to rest.

To add that all up, that means you get 2 uses of a 5d6 version, 3 uses of a 4d6 version, and 4 uses of the 3d6 version.

[revan1229]

Messaggio originale di GrandMajora:

Messaggio originale di revan1229:

They are CRPGs... You listed CRPGs and MMOs separate, so I assumed you were applying your logic to both? Also, you were referencing D&D, so I brought up D&D CRPGs.

In either case, you said that arcane casters shouldn't expect to be damage dealers and that CC/buffs trumped anything else that they can do, so my points still stand (as Wizards can apply buffs before combat, they have tons of slots to work with, and death is the best CC - outside of the early/early-mid game).

Actually, even early on in the game, we can argue that spell casters can dish out some high damage. Cantrips such as Fire Bolt deals an initial starting damage of 1d10, and has a range of 120 feet. Compare that to the damage output of a Greatsword (2d6), which you have to get in close range to hit the enemy with.

And since it's a cantrip, the wizard can cast this spell an infinite number of times without needing to rest, and it's damage automatically scales with your level. Once you reach level 5, it increases to 2d10 damage, meaning it's nearly twice as powerful as a Greatsword.

The 1st level spell, Burning Hands, inflicts 3D6 damage in a 15 foot cone in front of you, and adds an extra 1d6 damage for every spell level beyond the 1st. Sure, you can only cast it 2 times a day at level 1, but by the time you reach level 5, you can cast the spell 2 times a day as a 3rd level slot, 3 times a day as a 2nd level slot, and 4 times a day as a 1st level slot, all before you need to rest.

To add that all up, that means you get 2 uses of a 5d6 version, 3 uses of a 4d6 version, and 4 uses of the 3d6 version.

That's a good point. Was not really thinking about cantrips.

And yeah, even in this game, Burning Hands on a CB Sorc (or Wizard that dips into CB Sorc) can do some nasty damage early combined with the Gloves of the Neophyte and/or Metamagic.

[GrandMajora]

Messaggio originale di revan1229:

That's a good point. Was not really thinking about cantrips.

And yeah, even in this game, Burning Hands on a CB Sorc (or Wizard that dips into CB Sorc) can do some nasty damage early combined with the Gloves of the Neophyte and/or Metamagic.

Just to clarify, I was talking about 5th edition D&D. Pathfinder doesn't let you cat spells at higher level slots, unless you're using meta magic.