Unarmed monk is useless.

[Gorbachop]

My traditional monk is doing 0 dmg with her unarmed attacks. Why the hell is this even a class if it deals no dmg?

edit: angry typos

[Princess Pilfer]

Originally posted by Gorbachop:

Originally posted by fox5s:

@Gorbachop yeah, it's a struggle earlier. I'd basically take Princess's advice and keep a monk weapon on had for a while. There's some pretty decent quarterstaves available early (or just use Finnean to use what you want). Amulet of Mighty Fists, Greater Magic Fang of sufficient level, and some Monk only Robes (available later) solve the problem for the most part.

I dipped into monk on my main playthrough and have been using unarmed as my main weapon. It's not the focus of my build but until I get a specific weapon, it's doing fine. Yes, if I happen to run into something that I'm not overcoming the DR of, my damage tanks and I have to switch to a backup weapon. Even when I can't overcome the DR, sometimes it's more efficient to stick with Unarmed anyway because of my high strength and number of attacks. Remember, you can overcome Damage Reduction with raw damage. :D

Also, that invisible wall issue is a bug that keeps popping back up and they keep smashing. The work around is to switch to Real-Time with Pause mode long enough for everyone to move into the room and then you can switch back to Turn Based mode.

I've played a lot of crpg's, and grew up with bg1 and bg2. I've completed those games at least a dozen times each. But I just can't get into this pathfinder system at all. It's all min-maxing with no room for roleplay whatsoever. This is the first crpg game i've played that I feel like i HAVE to search for build guides, which there are very few of and most are very weak as well, to even be able to complete the tavern fight in act 1. Also, the time limit they've put on it is absurd, I cant stand games that forces you to rush through the game. Stress, yeah, that's what I want when I finally have some free time to sit down and play games... I might return to this game when they release an enchanced edition that fixes all gamebreaking bugs, but for now I wish I could refund it.

On Core and below, it's not. There's a lot of room for roleplay you just have to have a pretty decent understanding of the mechanics (and Owlcats implementation of/changes to those mechanics) to know how to brute-force the thing you want to do into being viable.

I mostly play RP centric builds and i mostly play on Core (or core with Deaths Door turned on if I'm feeling lazy.) And there's often got to be some compromises. For example if I'm trying to play a melee Hunter, I'm taking 2 levels of Instinctual Warrior, or 1 level of monk, and 1 level of (insert class that can cast mage armor here) because not doing that is asking for suffering. So I'd end up leveling like IW 2 Hunter 6 Sorcerer 1, Hunter 11. It's not *the best* melee hunter, and it's not *the most* RP friendly hunter, but it's functional, and it won't die the instant something looks at it funny.

Granted it did take some work to get to that point. I had to check what does/doesn't stack, plan out feats and calculate AC and AB in advance (at level 9 and level 20.) There's some effort involved. But the end result is that I can play my RP friendly 1-20 shield-bearer tank and have them not be total garbage. (They're perpetually about 5AC short of where I'd want them to be but protective luck, Last Stand, concealment, and doing a heck of a lot of damage so things die quickly all help deal with that problem)

It's actually not a time limit (as in play time) but a time limit as in in-game time (it's a certain number of days.) Mostly it's punishing inefficency (ie you took too much damage and had to rest too often) not being slow.

[fox5s]

Wait, were there problems with the Tavern fight in Act 1? Irabeth tells you exactly how to trivialize it (and I was on Core). Just had Woljif and Camellia memorize some Grease/Entangle (as Irabeth suggests), drop them in key places, and that fight is easy.

Set everyone to range and mop up. Even Seelah should have a MW Cold Iron Javelin to toss around. My MC didn't have much range so they roamed the top of the wall. Only issue I ran into is losing the booze cart due to surprise Minotaur and two Arsonists my first time doing it. No problems the next time since I knew approximately when that would happen and could make sure it was Greased and/or Entangled as well (Achievement unlocked).

[DaGuy]

Originally posted by seeker1:

I disagree. However, arguing the point is moot, so I won't expend the effort. The 2.5E rules had kits and other ways to specialize characters. If you wanted class variety, there was always various supplements beyond the base Players Handbook. Oriental Adventures let you play a samurai or ninja. Etc.

And if you had two players of the same kit? What differentiated how they played outside of weapon profs?

That's true, but I didn't need to be a 2/2/4/8/3 LS/BS/NFT/ZBZ/MG minmaxing one particular spell to defeat everything in the game.

I mean, you had literal spreadsheets for STR values at 18-00 through 18-99, very strange stat scaling, etc.

Also, DR didn't exist in 2E rules. Some things could only be hurt by magic weapons, or silver or iron ones, but they didn't have DR.

So going from total immunity if you had the wrong weapon to a DR of 5/10 was.... worse?

And yes, I knew when going up against a demilich, I better damn well have protection from death magic.

don't forget mindflayers, green slimes, petrification traps and monsters, etc. There were plenty of "oh you didn't have the right magic item or spell on at this time? loldead" issues.

P,S I agree 2E fighters were boring, that was why I preferred rangers, paladins, etc. But here's the thing, I don't find Pathfinder fighters THAT much more interesting. To each their own, of course.

Eh, I can build two "default" fighters much more differently depending on their stat spread, intelligence is actually potentially valuable for the combat expertise line of feats that open up combat maneuvers. Couldn't ever do that with default fighters in earlier editions.

[seeker1]

Originally posted by T3hMerc:

So going from total immunity if you had the wrong weapon to a DR of 5/10 was.... worse?

There was plenty about 2E rules that was worse. I actually think spell resistance/SR is better in 3E than magic resistance in 2E since you get a chance to overcome it, etc. How AC worked in 2E was daft.

All that said, whatever, we're after all once again simply arguing a lot of subjective opinions, but mine is that you can definitely build an interesting CRPG without the Pathfinder style rules, and without going to the past, we have some 5E games doing that right now ... Solasta, and soon to be, BG3.

I get some people love Mathfinder. I will finally probably get to compare the two systems, at least in a CRPG, and 5E looks to be ... quite good. But let's be honest, even Pathfinder 2E, which is the current version, scales back some of the Mathfinder aspects ... even Paizo knew how to improve the system, it's just for ... reasons ... Wrath still uses 1E.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by Gorbachop:

My traditional monk is doing 0 dmg with her unarmed attacks. Why the hell is this even a class if it deals no dmg?

edit: angry typos

You're fighting against mostly demons, who have damage resistance. There's a mythic version of Improved Unarmed Strike, which causes your unarmed attacks to deal bonus damage equal to half your Mythic Rank.

There's also a mythic ability called Brutality Incarnate, which causes your 'natural attacks' to bypass damage resistance. However, I do not know if this applies to Unarmed Attacks as well? If it doesn't, then the ability seems useless for anyone who doesn't have polymorphing magic.

[jutschi78]

Originally posted by Fingusa of the East:

Like I said, it is just this weird sadism that Owlcat Studios creates their games with. Being a player under them has to be the worst experience ever.

Pathfinder allows you to create thousands of combinations of characters with classes and archetypes, but sadly Owlcat focuses on only a handful of those and basically says "oh yeah you can make a combo that is sub-optimal, but you will suffer for it, just go online a seek out a build".

Goes against everything these systems were made for...

I think that is a bit unfair. If you play normal or lower difficulty, then the game is quite forgiving. On story difficulty in act 1 even Nenio can one-shooted many enemies with her heavy crossbow. You can run realtime very fast then ;-)

There is no need for min/max.

At core and higher you need to optimize, becauses creatures stats are so high and have so much immunities, that without you will die. So it is up to you, how you play.

[DaGuy]

Originally posted by seeker1:

I get some people love Mathfinder. I will finally probably get to compare the two systems, at least in a CRPG, and 5E looks to be ... quite good. But let's be honest, even Pathfinder 2E, which is the current version, scales back some of the Mathfinder aspects ... even Paizo knew how to improve the system, it's just for ... reasons ... Wrath still uses 1E.

Meh: my reaction to playing a 5th edition game. It's dumbed down for sure so maybe some people might enjoy that, I really didn't care for it though. And is 2e actually that or are you going off what other people have said? It'd be pretty dumb of them to take a refined 3.5 and dumb it down for people that can't do a bit of math.

[seeker1]

Your opinion is noted. The way you've couched it doesn't make it interesting for me.

Cheers.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by T3hMerc:

Meh: my reaction to playing a 5th edition game. It's dumbed down for sure so maybe some people might enjoy that, I really didn't care for it though. And is 2e actually that or are you going off what other people have said? It'd be pretty dumb of them to take a refined 3.5 and dumb it down for people that can't do a bit of math.

Second Edition Pathfinder has made it possible for the halfbreed heritages (Tiefling, Aasimar, Dhampir, est) to be applied to any race now, instead of it being defaulted to humans.

They also gave players the freedom to make cross breed heritages for ALL ancestries. Which means that (as long as the DM approves it) it is now possible for you to mix and match any race you want.

Some crazy examples:

Gnoll + Lizardfolk

Grippli + Anadi

Goblin + Ratfolk

Goloma + Kobold

[DaGuy]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Second Edition Pathfinder has made it possible for the halfbreed heritages (Tiefling, Aasimar, Dhampir, est) to be applied to any race now, instead of it being defaulted to humans.

They also gave players the freedom to make cross breed heritages for ALL ancestries. Which means that (as long as the DM approves it) it is now possible for you to mix and match any race you want.

That's pretty awesome, more player freedom and character choices is always good; I always wanted to do edgy half-dragon stuff in 3.5 as a teen. I just hope it's not too 5E like. I enjoy some of what they did and some of it makes a lot of sense for the most part but man did they cut down on feats by having you choose between feats or stat increases. Plus I enjoy archetypes the way they're done in Path vs 5e.

[Princess Pilfer]

It's not. 5E is actively trying to be the simplest possible version of the game. Feats aren't even the default way to play, they're an optional rule. (which is why they're so hilariously unbalanced.)


PF2 tries really hard to be more about moment-to-moment choices and gives you huge piles of feats to customize your playstyle. Also yes they significantly dial back the 'mathfinder' aspect in favor of making it a game of action economy and feat-selection.

[Jalmari H.]

Actually all classes do "0 damage" in this game unless you figure out how to bypass damage reduction (and/or ridiculously high AC with touch spells/abilities etc)

Majority on enemies are demons so they have high damage reduction and spell resistance you have to bypass.

Certain buff spells, items and mythic feats lets you do exactly that.

In very early game you should have access to something like:
- align weapon (good) or other spells that give similar effect
- cold iron weapons
- amulet of mighty fists
- mythic feats (around level 5 i guess)

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by T3hMerc:

That's pretty awesome, more player freedom and character choices is always good; I always wanted to do edgy half-dragon stuff in 3.5 as a teen. I just hope it's not too 5E like. I enjoy some of what they did and some of it makes a lot of sense for the most part but man did they cut down on feats by having you choose between feats or stat increases. Plus I enjoy archetypes the way they're done in Path vs 5e.

If you're interested, check out a website called Archives of Nethys. It has all the mechanical rules for Pathfinder both 1st and 2nd edition listed in detail for free, and continues to update itself as more content is released.

Now before you accuse them of copyright infringement, or piracy, you should know the site is fully endorsed by Paizo themselves.

In other words, you only need to buy the books, if you want to learn about the lore and fluff material for Golarion. If you're planning to homebrew your own setting, the mechanical side of things is totally free!

https://2e.aonprd.com/Default.aspx

ALSO adding to the list of differences, Paizo has decided to veer into the realm of allowing players the freedom to be Tiny and Large sized creatures. Something which WotC still haven't had the courage to do.

Honestly, the more I learn about Pathfinder, the more I'm convinced it is a far better game than D&D.

[Fingusa of the East]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by T3hMerc:

That's pretty awesome, more player freedom and character choices is always good; I always wanted to do edgy half-dragon stuff in 3.5 as a teen. I just hope it's not too 5E like. I enjoy some of what they did and some of it makes a lot of sense for the most part but man did they cut down on feats by having you choose between feats or stat increases. Plus I enjoy archetypes the way they're done in Path vs 5e.

If you're interested, check out a website called Archives of Nethys. It has all the mechanical rules for Pathfinder both 1st and 2nd edition listed in detail for free, and continues to update itself as more content is released.

Now before you accuse them of copyright infringement, or piracy, you should know the site is fully endorsed by Paizo themselves.

In other words, you only need to buy the books, if you want to learn about the lore and fluff material for Golarion. If you're planning to homebrew your own setting, the mechanical side of things is totally free!

https://2e.aonprd.com/Default.aspx

ALSO adding to the list of differences, Paizo has decided to veer into the realm of allowing players the freedom to be Tiny and Large sized creatures. Something which WotC still haven't had the courage to do.

Honestly, the more I learn about Pathfinder, the more I'm convinced it is a far better game than D&D.

I will be completely honest, I had no idea the stuff is out there for free. Are you 100% sure this is legit and paizo is chill with it? Seems kinda crazy but also awesome if its true. Would save me lots of scaning of my books for new players if that is the case.

[Princess Pilfer]

Originally posted by Fingusa of the East:

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

If you're interested, check out a website called Archives of Nethys. It has all the mechanical rules for Pathfinder both 1st and 2nd edition listed in detail for free, and continues to update itself as more content is released.

Now before you accuse them of copyright infringement, or piracy, you should know the site is fully endorsed by Paizo themselves.

In other words, you only need to buy the books, if you want to learn about the lore and fluff material for Golarion. If you're planning to homebrew your own setting, the mechanical side of things is totally free!

https://2e.aonprd.com/Default.aspx

ALSO adding to the list of differences, Paizo has decided to veer into the realm of allowing players the freedom to be Tiny and Large sized creatures. Something which WotC still haven't had the courage to do.

Honestly, the more I learn about Pathfinder, the more I'm convinced it is a far better game than D&D.

I will be completely honest, I had no idea the stuff is out there for free. Are you 100% sure this is legit and paizo is chill with it? Seems kinda crazy but also awesome if its true. Would save me lots of scaning of my books for new players if that is the case.

Paizo owns the website.