So.... are Scroll's of Atonement alien to most people?

[HTakara]

I've noticed this a lot, that people don't know how to deal with paladin alignment shifting out of the class restriction... like how hard is it to go to the scroll seller by the temple?

[phadin]

I never actually saw that scroll in the scroll seller's list for sale.

Even if it was, some people don't want to spend the money, and some aren't watching their alignment and get blindsided in the middle of things.

It's what they deserve for playing a LG Paladin as a NG character because they find actually enforcing the law wrong.

[Daliena]

Y'all are weirdos.

Scrolls of Atonement shouldn't be necessary to play a LAWFUL GOOD paladin.

But you all just can't get over how apparently playing Two-Face is the ideal Paladin. You enforce the law today, then you're nice and good tomorrow, then so forth..

That isn't how any of this is supposed to work! A paladin is supposed to keep -both of those things in mind, at the same time,- when making their decisions!

[JillSandwich]

Originally posted by Daliena:

Y'all are weirdos.

Scrolls of Atonement shouldn't be necessary to play a LAWFUL GOOD paladin.

But you all just can't get over how apparently playing Two-Face is the ideal Paladin. You enforce the law today, then you're nice and good tomorrow, then so forth..

That isn't how any of this is supposed to work! A paladin is supposed to keep -both of those things in mind, at the same time,- when making their decisions!

This.
I can cheat my alignment with the toybox mod if I wanted to, that's not the point.
It's stupid that you need to go between "yeah it's okay if you slaughtered all those puppies <3 you repented so you're free to go :3" and "umm sorry but while you were escaping from those demons you technically crossed a red light so that means the gallows for you and your 3 year old, sorry, it's the law".

Also, the scrolls of alignment erase your biography, and screw that.

[Space Hamster Family]

Originally posted by Daliena:

Y'all are weirdos.

Scrolls of Atonement shouldn't be necessary to play a LAWFUL GOOD paladin.

But you all just can't get over how apparently playing Two-Face is the ideal Paladin. You enforce the law today, then you're nice and good tomorrow, then so forth..

That isn't how any of this is supposed to work! A paladin is supposed to keep -both of those things in mind, at the same time,- when making their decisions!

right, I was like always making a good and lawful choices only to end up in NG and become lose my status as a paladin. They need to fix this. It should be evil and chaotic choices that get you, at least thats how I remember it

[PhamTrinli]

Originally posted by HTakara:

I've noticed this a lot, that people don't know how to deal with paladin alignment shifting out of the class restriction... like how hard is it to go to the scroll seller by the temple?

what's a scroll?

[T.W. Hamill]

Originally posted by phadin:

It's what they deserve for playing a LG Paladin as a NG character because they find actually enforcing the law wrong.

Watching you keep peddling this tired ass argument over and over when you've been told quite plainly that its an artifical distinction that only exists because of bad writing in the game never gets old.

Alignments aren't supposed to be binary. In a real tabletop game, there are n ot just two options.

There wont be a "Good" option and a "Lawful" option - there will be whatever options i can work out. As a Paladin, if you're trying to stay true to being a paladin, you would NOT take most of the "Lawful" choices in this game because they are Lawful and EVIL.

Locking someone up and throwing away the key is not a choice a Paladin would make - EVER.

The game doesn't give you very many Lawful choices that a LG character could morally take.

Because almost all of the Lawful choices are LE or, at best, very hardcore LN (Judge Dredd.. I AM THE LAW!!)

Ive seen maybe two that were remotely OK for a Paladin to take if you're sticking true to a Paladin.

The situation exists because the game is creating a false dichotomy. In a real table game, a LG Paladin would likely not take EITHER of the "Good" or "Lawful" choices and would instead take a choice that is both. Like, negotiating with the local authorities for the person to go to jail but be allowed to work off their time as a penance, or something... instead of "go scott free" (Good) or "prison for lief for you" (Lawful) or, more likely "40 Lashes and Prison" (which the game labels as Lawful but is actually Lawful Evil).

Its bad writing and bad mechanics. The Alignment dialogue options should not move you on the opposing axis in this game because of that.

If you are makijng a Good/Neutral/Evil choice, it should only move you on the moral axis.

If you are making a Lawful/Neutral/Chaotic choice, it should only move you on that axis.

[GrandMajora]

Welcome to Paid Absolution.

Where as long as you're rich, you can get away with anything!

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by T.W. Hamill:

Locking someone up and throwing away the key is not a choice a Paladin would make - EVER.

I disagree. Remember, Paladins are people who have such a strong conviction to their oaths, that it grants them spiritual powers, such as their iconic Smite Evil.

Not 'arrest' evil, SMITE Evil! As in "I'm going to bring down the wrath of God upon you!"

[Harem Route]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by T.W. Hamill:

Locking someone up and throwing away the key is not a choice a Paladin would make - EVER.

I disagree. Remember, Paladins are people who have such a strong conviction to their oaths, that it grants them spiritual powers, such as their iconic Smite Evil.

Not 'arrest' evil, SMITE Evil! As in "I'm going to bring down the wrath of God upon you!"

True, but it's also smite EVIL, not smite neutral or smite chaotic or even smite lawful... can I remind you that killing the whatshisname inquisitor dude who healed you for doing his job of burning Ember is a lawful choice?
Right after you can make another lawful choice of helping him attack other alleged heretics?

[RocketMan]

Originally posted by HTakara:

I've noticed this a lot, that people don't know how to deal with paladin alignment shifting out of the class restriction... like how hard is it to go to the scroll seller by the temple?

Isn't it more the "i chose good options, but now I'm neutral good!" the issue?

Like, people aren't mad about having to use a scroll. People are mad that it's even an issue in the first place.

[Angry Trash]

Originally posted by T.W. Hamill:

Originally posted by phadin:

It's what they deserve for playing a LG Paladin as a NG character because they find actually enforcing the law wrong.

Watching you keep peddling this tired ass argument over and over when you've been told quite plainly that its an artifical distinction that only exists because of bad writing in the game never gets old.

Alignments aren't supposed to be binary. In a real tabletop game, there are n ot just two options.

There wont be a "Good" option and a "Lawful" option - there will be whatever options i can work out. As a Paladin, if you're trying to stay true to being a paladin, you would NOT take most of the "Lawful" choices in this game because they are Lawful and EVIL.

Locking someone up and throwing away the key is not a choice a Paladin would make - EVER.

The game doesn't give you very many Lawful choices that a LG character could morally take.

Because almost all of the Lawful choices are LE or, at best, very hardcore LN (Judge Dredd.. I AM THE LAW!!)

Ive seen maybe two that were remotely OK for a Paladin to take if you're sticking true to a Paladin.

The situation exists because the game is creating a false dichotomy. In a real table game, a LG Paladin would likely not take EITHER of the "Good" or "Lawful" choices and would instead take a choice that is both. Like, negotiating with the local authorities for the person to go to jail but be allowed to work off their time as a penance, or something... instead of "go scott free" (Good) or "prison for lief for you" (Lawful) or, more likely "40 Lashes and Prison" (which the game labels as Lawful but is actually Lawful Evil).

Its bad writing and bad mechanics. The Alignment dialogue options should not move you on the opposing axis in this game because of that.

If you are makijng a Good/Neutral/Evil choice, it should only move you on the moral axis.

If you are making a Lawful/Neutral/Chaotic choice, it should only move you on that axis.

All of this ignores the fact that most players will in fact pick to be a Paladin of a faith, a faith which has actual written tenets.

Shelyn and Sarenrae both require you to accept the surrender, plea of mercy, and ask of redemption from an enemy. Where they differ is that Shelyn requires her paladins to grit their teeth and accept it even as the enemy mocks them and acknowledges their goddess *requires* them to stay their hand unless the offender tries to harm them in that moment (This also happens to Sosiel). Sarenrae, Goddess of Light and Redemption, however tells you instead that if you believe that the enemy exploits her oath of forgiveness to seek freedom to commit more atrocities it is righteous and good that you strike them down.

What you desire is almost completely irrelevant if you are someone who is so utterly bound to faith and code of your god that you are empowered by them - unlike in newer DnD editions where it is the power of will of your faith that grants this here it is divinity. If you would ever go against your god, you are shaken in conviction clearly - you will be stripped and required to atone as you should.

Laws exist for a reason. Faith exists for a reason. Those who exist at the intersection of them exist for a reason. Some gods are frivolous enough to let you give everyone a slap on the wrist and community service, it is wrong to treat that as all of them.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by Harem Route:

True, but it's also smite EVIL, not smite neutral or smite chaotic or even smite lawful... can I remind you that killing the whatshisname inquisitor dude who healed you for doing his job of burning Ember is a lawful choice?
Right after you can make another lawful choice of helping him attack other alleged heretics?

I mean, from an Aeon's point of view, Ember would be seen as a criminal. She's convincing DEMONS, creatures who's entire being is composed of the very essence of chaos and evil to abandon their wicked ways and embrace a life of peace and tranquility.

Ember is convincing the very essence of evil itself to renounce evil. She is violating the laws of reality, and she must be punished for it.

As for the Desnan cultists, Hulrin had very good reason to suspect them. He denied them access to the Wardstone when they asked, only to later find out that they had broken into its location and were performing strange rituals on the stone, just minutes before demons started attacking the city.

And if you talk about this with the cultist who is disguised as a crusader, he admits that they overstepped their bounds when they broke into the Wardstone.

[Dex]

three things:

1. Lawful in this game means "sociopath".

2. Good choices push you towards Neutral.

3. I'm a paladin of Sarenrae. Go ahead and tell me how being neutral good means I lose her blessing.

What are we supposed to do exactly? Alternate ONLY between good and lawful choices? If i choose to make 10 good choices for every 2 lawful choices, i will push towards neutral good. How does that make sense?

[Daliena]

Originally posted by Angry Trash:

Originally posted by T.W. Hamill:

Watching you keep peddling this tired ass argument over and over when you've been told quite plainly that its an artifical distinction that only exists because of bad writing in the game never gets old.

Alignments aren't supposed to be binary. In a real tabletop game, there are n ot just two options.

There wont be a "Good" option and a "Lawful" option - there will be whatever options i can work out. As a Paladin, if you're trying to stay true to being a paladin, you would NOT take most of the "Lawful" choices in this game because they are Lawful and EVIL.

Locking someone up and throwing away the key is not a choice a Paladin would make - EVER.

The game doesn't give you very many Lawful choices that a LG character could morally take.

Because almost all of the Lawful choices are LE or, at best, very hardcore LN (Judge Dredd.. I AM THE LAW!!)

Ive seen maybe two that were remotely OK for a Paladin to take if you're sticking true to a Paladin.

The situation exists because the game is creating a false dichotomy. In a real table game, a LG Paladin would likely not take EITHER of the "Good" or "Lawful" choices and would instead take a choice that is both. Like, negotiating with the local authorities for the person to go to jail but be allowed to work off their time as a penance, or something... instead of "go scott free" (Good) or "prison for lief for you" (Lawful) or, more likely "40 Lashes and Prison" (which the game labels as Lawful but is actually Lawful Evil).

Its bad writing and bad mechanics. The Alignment dialogue options should not move you on the opposing axis in this game because of that.

If you are makijng a Good/Neutral/Evil choice, it should only move you on the moral axis.

If you are making a Lawful/Neutral/Chaotic choice, it should only move you on that axis.

All of this ignores the fact that most players will in fact pick to be a Paladin of a faith, a faith which has actual written tenets.

Shelyn and Sarenrae both require you to accept the surrender, plea of mercy, and ask of redemption from an enemy. Where they differ is that Shelyn requires her paladins to grit their teeth and accept it even as the enemy mocks them and acknowledges their goddess *requires* them to stay their hand unless the offender tries to harm them in that moment (This also happens to Sosiel). Sarenrae, Goddess of Light and Redemption, however tells you instead that if you believe that the enemy exploits her oath of forgiveness to seek freedom to commit more atrocities it is righteous and good that you strike them down.

What you desire is almost completely irrelevant if you are someone who is so utterly bound to faith and code of your god that you are empowered by them - unlike in newer DnD editions where it is the power of will of your faith that grants this here it is divinity. If you would ever go against your god, you are shaken in conviction clearly - you will be stripped and required to atone as you should.

Laws exist for a reason. Faith exists for a reason. Those who exist at the intersection of them exist for a reason. Some gods are frivolous enough to let you give everyone a slap on the wrist and community service, it is wrong to treat that as all of them.

*Clears throat*

The Paladin Code of Abadar, emphasized sections mine..

- I will always protect the innocent, by helping them protect themselves where I can and stepping in personally where I cannot.

- I will always act with honor and honesty. I cannot truly represent my faith if people cannot put their faith in me.

- I respect all lawful authority and understand that different places have laws that I may not agree with, but work for those who reside within. If a law is unlawful, I will work to the best of my ability to show them a better law or way.

- I am a protector of the roadways and keep travelers from harm. No matter their destinations or goals, if they are peaceable and legitimate travelers who harm no others on the road, I will ensure that they pass safely.

- Bandits are a plague. Under my will they come to justice. If they will not come willingly before the law, where they can protest for justice in the courts, they will come under the power of my sword.

- Corruption in the courts is the greatest corruption of civilization. Without confidence in justice, citizens cannot believe in their countries, and civilization begins to disappear. I will root out corruption wherever I find it, and if a system is fundamentally flawed, I will work to aid citizens by reforming or replacing it.

- I am an aid to the markets. I ensure equitable trade between merchants and citizens. Theft on either side is intolerable.

- I make opportunities, and teach others to recognize them. When I aid others, I open the way for them, but will not carry them—they must take responsibility.

Mind you, this is the literal God of Law, the Lawful Good Judge of Gods, telling you that not every mortal law is a good thing to blindly follow.

[Angry Trash]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by Harem Route:

True, but it's also smite EVIL, not smite neutral or smite chaotic or even smite lawful... can I remind you that killing the whatshisname inquisitor dude who healed you for doing his job of burning Ember is a lawful choice?
Right after you can make another lawful choice of helping him attack other alleged heretics?

I mean, from an Aeon's point of view, Ember would be seen as a criminal. She's convincing DEMONS, creatures who's entire being is composed of the very essence of chaos and evil to abandon their wicked ways and embrace a life of peace and tranquility.

Ember is convincing the very essence of evil itself to renounce evil. She is violating the laws of reality, and she must be punished for it.

As for the Desnan cultists, Hulrin had very good reason to suspect them. He denied them access to the Wardstone when they asked, only to later find out that they had broken into its location and were performing strange rituals on the stone, just minutes before demons started attacking the city.

And if you talk about this with the cultist who is disguised as a crusader, he admits that they overstepped their bounds when they broke into the Wardstone.

She never actually violates the law herself though. It is her right as a mortal on the plane she exists in to have true free will. In this case, it's the demon's fault for accepting her speech since the Aeon doesn't really care about entrapment. Also, there's the whole fact that she is a chosen of Andoletta, the Heavenly Shepherd of Requius, an empyrean like Sarenrae herself was. She is literally guided by one of the most lawful and holy beings to do this.