"Good" in this game

[Quacksalber]

Now I've seen people moaning about how being evil sucks, but what about good? Most of the good choices seem to be synonymous with ... dumb, naive, or possibly some kind of Pious/pacifist level of good. Like literally forgive everyone no matter how fkd up they are. Which kind of makes no sense, because why kill anyone at all then? Think I'll stick to neutral from now on.

[urartu]

You are not born as an extraplanar being, so you can choose sometimes evil, chaotic or lawful options. The game does that exactly, giving you options.

[LordSith]

That's clear but i think it's a bias in the system of alignment itself.

You can't have a "good" pragmatic. Pragmatism is inherently evil in the setting (see Regill for some of his earlier comments on war)

[Black Hammer]

Originally posted by urartu:

You are not playing a deva, so you can choose sometimes evil, chaotic or lawful options. The game does that exactly, giving you options.

Pretty much. You're allowed to pick different answers most of the time. People also tend to forget that the reason "(Evil) I don't like your face, attack!" is included for most NPCs is because genocide/murderhobo runs are an included playstyle. Not every evil character is going to use those.

[Quacksalber]

Originally posted by urartu:

You are not born as an extraplanar being, so you can choose sometimes evil, chaotic or lawful options. The game does that exactly, giving you options.

I'm aware of that. There's usually also an option that lets you avoid picking any alignment related answer. I was just commenting on the nature of good options in general.

Seems to me in this the evil characters are simply more realistic.

[Quacksalber]

Originally posted by AngelRay:

That's clear but i think it's a bias in the system of alignment itself.

You can't have a "good" pragmatic. Pragmatism is inherently evil in the setting (see Regill for some of his earlier comments on war)

Regill hasn't struck me as particularly evil so far. The Hellknights in Kingmaker were a lot more objectionable.

[JacobTheViking]

It's sort of a weird dumb holdover from the D&D alignment system. Life and death are the epicenter of alignment. Being too edge lord about death is very close to evil, instead of just weird in D&D.

[Crowsephian]

The game definitely seems to be biased towards 'Good' and 'Chaotic' choices. So far the seem to be the most common answers that lead towards progression or agreements within the party. I was also annoyed that when I wanted to do some 'Evil' and 'Lawful' choices about half of them were about killing whomever the target conversation was about.

[Quacksalber]

Originally posted by Crowsephian:

The game definitely seems to be biased towards 'Good' and 'Chaotic' choices. So far the seem to be the most common answers that lead towards progression or agreements within the party. I was also annoyed that when I wanted to do some 'Evil' and 'Lawful' choices about half of them were about killing whomever the target conversation was about.

Can't you circumvent it? I'm playing chaotic good, and I've managed to stay properly aligned in spite of ignoring a lot of the "good" choices - I just pick an answer that does what I want but isn't labelled. Nevertheless, a lot of the good choices just seem dumb to me in this game.

[Arisu]

In my opinion alignment in games are inherently flawed as they are treated as objective truths, when in reality, evil is in the eye of the beholder. A game can not capture our nuances or intentions. That's why good an evil options are often so on the nose that they become caricatures. And since there are game mechanics attached to it, we feel pressured into being this caricature out of fear we might lose certain class abilities. Not to mention that if our intentions don't match the alignment that the game gives for these choices, we can feel judged by the game.

[LordSith]

Originally posted by EH!:

Originally posted by AngelRay:

That's clear but i think it's a bias in the system of alignment itself.

You can't have a "good" pragmatic. Pragmatism is inherently evil in the setting (see Regill for some of his earlier comments on war)

Regill hasn't struck me as particularly evil so far. The Hellknights in Kingmaker were a lot more objectionable.

His alignment is evil and all his decisions are pure pragmatism.
The setting itself (in KM) made pragmatism = evil, as if good never could be pragmatic.

I just ran into a classical "let that Npc who attacked me without warning live" question and basically i saw those options among other:
- "good = go, and repent!"
- "evil = you should have thought before attacking me".

I hope that some day, a evil character could have the failing npc to live and rejoin him, and a good one would have him die now because good is not dumb per se.

Edit: in those games you can choose the decision you want, i do not object this. i'm just saying categorizying pragmatism as evil and put repentance in every "good" decision is boring as hell.

[Nepnep]

Alignment choices in this game is just plain bad.

(Good) Shows lots of empathy, caring, naivety, yada yada, towards victims (and sometimes enemies) which is apparently not lawful even when the "hand of law", like Prelate Hurlun, attempt to kill innocent people.

(Lawful) Is a middle finger to anyone that stepped over the line for whatever reason at all, regardless of how serious or minor, regardless of future consequences. And if it was a dialogue choice regarding a dead person, you pretty much harshly criticize/spit on their graves for abandoning the law.

(Chaotic) is usually a middle finger to everything in general, like when you snark at someone else's expense/sob story with the tact of a sledgehammer.

And (Evil). If it's not "All Y0uR B4ses are mine" then it's "KILL EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM!"

Look at Seelah. "Lawful Good" is a lie. With these standards that person is Neutral Good, or Chaotic Good because she is too much of a bleeding heart to be lawful.

[Snakebearer]

Most people don't understand the alignment system.
Unfortunately, the god machinery in the PF and older D&D worlds does not subject themselves to your personal beliefs of what is good and evil. ^^ Since those things are objective in these worlds.

Pragmatism isn't always evil. But it often is.
This isn't and Owlcat thing. This is a Pathfinder thing. It's why your subjective beliefs becomes the best weapon enhancements in these games.

"Oh, you're altruistic to a fault? Here is my sword blessed with Axiomatic properties. It splatters your brain and soul all over the floor. :D"

What I'm saying is.. Evil isn't synonymous with bad. Most people, just don't understand the alignment scale. And AngelRay, about your last edit; it's the literal purpose..? :S

[Quacksalber]

Originally posted by Snakebearer:

Most people don't understand the alignment system.
Unfortunately, the god machinery in the PF and older D&D worlds does not subject themselves to your personal beliefs of what is good and evil. ^^ Since those things are objective in these worlds.

Pragmatism isn't always evil. But it often is.
This isn't and Owlcat thing. This is a Pathfinder thing. It's why your subjective beliefs becomes the best weapon enhancements in these games.

"Oh, you're altruistic to a fault? Here is my sword blessed with Axiomatic properties. It splatters your brain and soul all over the floor. :D"

What I'm saying is.. Evil isn't synonymous with bad. Most people, just don't understand the alignment scale. And AngelRay, about your last edit; it's the literal purpose..? :S

Fair enough, hence my saying I'll pick neutral from now on. I'm fine with not understanding it, but it still feels somewhat dumb to me. However, I didn't find it this bad in Kingmaker, for instance. That game didn't suggest forgiving every second maniac as the "good" option. There was the Tristian dilemma - where you actually knew the guy so it was a legit hard choice - and other stuff like the kobolds, trolls and bandits where letting them do their thing was considered chaotic (Tsanna too). For me making such behaviour chaotic makes more sense than to make good people act either extremely pious or very naive. So, is compulsively forgiving really bad people you have zero motivation to let off chaotic in Pathfinder or good?