Point Defense Logic and EWAR

[akdude2000]

So i feel that kinetic PD such as light rail guns are really ineffective, because they keep shooting at the same target until it dies even when the in transit shots are going to kill it, and laser weapon tend to shoot there targets before there shots arrive achieving nothing.

Also missile on defense mode seem useless as well.

Using a mod that adds some new kinetic pd such as a quick fire 40mm but same issues apply and they are much less effective than they should be.

Feel like a overhauls of PD logic would be nice, allowing for more effective kinetic PD and for it to work better with laser PD.

[Premu]

You only know that it'll kill the target if the target blows up, though. And spreading shots instead of removing one threat entirely isn't really optimal either.

Point defense is not meant to be able to defeat the enemy on its own. It can protect stations from being taken over instantly, and as additional support for your fleet if you're fighting. It's essential for that role.

[Ericus1]

That's because light rails make for terrible point defense to start with.

See here: https://discord.com/channels/462769550841348126/1275680875010588713

[Sleepy_Walker]

In my limited experience I agree. The best I got from coil guns for point defense was picking off some ballistic rounds that got within spitting distance, where at least they seem to always defeat each other if they collide. I guess minor bonus that the misses will still trigger any laser point defense the aliens may have.

Early defensive missiles were worse, shooting off laterally and never getting close to an intercept (I was trying for an anti-missile missile safety net to range out beyond my laser point defense). I suspect the defensive nuclear missiles would work pretty well, since they have more range, fuel, speed, and a blast cone/radius.

It does seem like the best point defense options are some sort of energy weapon, point defense laser or the basic laser battery.

[ExavierMacbeth]

Originally posted by Sleepy_Walker:

I suspect the defensive nuclear missiles would work pretty well, since they have more range, fuel, speed, and a blast cone/radius

Only in an early game emergency... Unfortunately they will volley the entire magazine at the first intercept-able object they detect and end up clumped together to all detonate on a single target. They might take out multiple targets but the blast radius on the 50kt Python (one with the defensive option) isn't really that big.

It took me manually stagger firing 1 launcher on each of 8 ships to generate enough of a cloud to neutralize most of what a single alien torpedo frigate fired back at me (I still lost 2 ships... 1 to friendly fire when a nuke detonated next to it while trying to kill a torpedo aimed at a ship deeper in the formation)...

Only reason I tried it was because I expected the enemy to die to my 650kt Hades barrage anyway and wanted to see if I could get some of my ships to survive... Knew the 40mm wouldn't stop them and figured I would shoot them & see... I expected my fleet to die anyway.

Stick with Ion PD or Laser PD for intercepting missiles... 40mm if you want something reliable to intercept enemy Kinetic/Mag rounds.

Note: To anyone telling me I should just use Artemis Torpedoes instead of Nuclear Tipped... Bah, I refuse to let little things like lower magazine counts stop me from firing instakill weapons at the enemy... Its too satisfying to nuke aliens early game :)

[Pawleus]

Originally posted by ExavierMacbeth:

Stick with Ion PD or Laser PD for intercepting missiles... 40mm if you want something reliable to intercept enemy Kinetic/Mag rounds.

Yes, that's the way for the static combat. However, even now in the 0.4.48 maneuvering combat you can still avoid entering alien missiles' effective range (with more deltaV expenditure and ECM is more of a threat than pre-0.4.47; Glittering Jewels are hardest) while using Pythons as ship-killers so no PD is needed (you can do so with Riverjacks so even earlier but in case of Sidewinders it's easiest).

Edit: As far as anti-missile logic goes, I feature-requested changes to it some time ago because they demand a lot of micromanagement now to work around its deficiencies.

[akdude2000]

Well Kinetic rounds don't change direction, so once you fire enough rounds to destroy the projectile you can move on to the next. is one example as to how pd turrets can be smarter.

[akdude2000]

also maybe let kinetic PD intercept Plasma, to give them a bit more use and reason to mix in to fleets

[Blaarg]

40mm cannons are already the best pd in the game for a ship defending itself against incoming kinetic rounds. No reason to buff them further.

I do wish the best kinetic pd was further into the tech tree.

[akdude2000]

Originally posted by Blaarg:

40mm cannons are already the best pd in the game for a ship defending itself against incoming kinetic rounds. No reason to buff them further.

I do wish the best kinetic pd was further into the tech tree.

I agree about 40mm effective ness, but if a 40mm has fired enough rounds to kill a projectile then it should switch to the next and laser PD should ignore it allowing them to focus on other targets, instead of deleting the projectile the 40mm has already taken care of but its projectile are still traveling, freeing up the laser PD to intercept targets the kinetic PD will potentially miss against or cant hit. Because most the time my Kinetic PD rounds are all wasted as the laser PD intercepts the round, and you cant just rely on 40mm later on, so mixed PD load outs should be more logical in target assignment.

Also Kinetic PD should prioritize intercepting enemy projectiles over missiles if laser PDs are also present, as they are less likely to miss against them.


And when firing against missiles, kinetic PD could fire enough to kill its target and move on to the next, unless the target maneuvers then it resets back to the initial target, or lets laser PD deal with it. A simple example of more effective PD logic.

Some of this could be added in as option for PD doctrine, in either the editor and/or as a panel in combat for fleet and ships. Another PD doctrine option could be number of interceptor missiles per target or overkill, basically fire 2x-4x the amount of required shots to kill a target in case a few miss. ECM could also launch flares, chaff, and jam incoming missiles, causing them to actually loose track and stop seeking their target, defeating kinetic missiles and nukes, but flares and chaff are limited ammo, and Jamming is only active in bursts, meaning you can set how heavily vs. how long you jammers active, and how many chaff clouds and flares should be active at a time while enemy missile are active trading sustainability or effectiveness. Maybe have magazines increase flare/chaff count.

[akdude2000]

also some modded PDs with longer ranges, like 550km seem to really struggle and just fire in random directions when the enemy first fires, wasting ammo and causing unnecessary lag, and I'm pretty sure its a issue with pd logic and something that modders cant really fix.

[Ravenous]

Ships and guns supposedly use advanced AI but when watching how coil gun shots and those other kinetics act, i highly doubt it.