modder question for players

[Badger BrownCoat]

dead thread temp use as dropbox

as is (vanilla) we start as shadow organizations but May choose to reveal; later we story mission into openly becoming a force; ( minimal spoiler, fair? )

Conceptual Clarification:

posit 1: Meaningful Choice
the "announcing" your faction and goals 'steps' should be more impactful than a minor resource bonus and shiny new org.
At some point you're coming out of the closet and asking nations to support what is in effect an alliance behind your particular response.
This is a SEA CHANGE from being *just* a shadow organization.
Particularly the current in-game mechanics do not support that anything but your "counsel" is actually hidden as to ownership or affiliation- call it oversight, or reducing complexity - BUT the result is your factions' ASSETS are as visible as if you'd gone public regardless of your in-game choices, the game MECHANICS ( lack of fog war ) support this better than i does it's current 'story'

&

posit 2: Alliances / Federations/ Security Councils / Mutual Defense
concerns are more RELEVANT and interesting to the scenario than old territorial claims -
this isn't Europa Spreadsheet-alis -this is a response to a threat ( or opportunity ) that trumps all old concerns.
( THE UN is suddenly helpless because the two nations that are always a problem leave again? I'd forgotten that bit of lore-text it's over so fast)
- to elaborate, the current claim system fits the game and era it's from- but in the scenario This game covers; it's out of place.
Old differences get trumped very quickly by an outside invader - US & Them mentality is a great unifier.

In closing, both existing mechanics fit not only "suspension of disbelief" and internal logic of the scenario BETTER for such a mod than the current system.
they both mechanically serve the "factions start as shadow, choose to become open alliances of supporting nations" better than the current, mostly EU system.
and current factions can't hide their assets so player choice aside they are hardly 'shadow' mechanically - no "Fog Of War" on non-councilor assets.

Thank you for your consideration.( op on steam discussion )

[Badger BrownCoat]

response to quesion on this from other platform if anyone interested:

This sounds cool. (Kinda weird that some kind of UN like group isn't already in the game? But whatever..) So, would you be able to do this as any faction?

well, ideally- yes ( there may be issues with the game not liking mulitple possible "federation" claims - another can of worms being discussed on mod forum )
- but on point, Yes: all the factions AS IS; have the option of when to announce themselves - the first opportunity being on alien arrival-
with pros and cons to each approach-
and you get "upgrades" of this option with story progression ( storymission / research fulfillment ) -
while it's hard to see the "illuminati" wanting to early on reveal themselves, & we can certainly see where "shadow war" is an advantage to some ( looking at you servants/ cult of sirius https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/Cult_of_Sirius - whatever you call yourselves ) -
others like the academy might be much more open about their goals; or the military opposition factions *
" dude- aliens! we need to form an "XCOm" style response PRONTO "-
but currently doing so is a minor decision with a " you get some bonus resources and a cool org " consequence-
whereas to me, going from "behind the scene power broker" to-
we OPENLY own space assets and a fleet- ( and in current game which nations belong to which faction is OPEN visiblity) -
to me would be a sea change and sounds much more like "NATO" than Shadow Doctrine ;)
I joked elsewhere thinking about this makes 'em want to boot up the game 'shadow doctrine' if anyone has played that.
But in summary- yes, I'd like to see that option for all factions- and it FEEL like a bigger change than " neat I get a shiny new org"

( ps from above footnote * - an example might be, of the militant opposition factions, the Resistance might choose to fight a shadow war, and the Humanity First might choose to openly ask for NATO style alliances, or vice versa, as an example of giving options in approach that are more meaningful than " i got a neat org" )

[Badger BrownCoat]

hiding this here from a thread i can't comment on; to consolidate later- plz ignore:

Trihne Oct 12 @ 10:29am
I think I got it : if you want to make a UN nation with New York as its capital, you need to give in the bilateral template file, the claim with line "capitalClaim": true, instead of null. With this, you might be able to release it as the nation who own New York with the national policy 'grant independance"

Trihne Oct 12 @ 9:42am
Instead of Singapore, couldn't you make New York the capital of the UN ? I don't think there is a state with only new york so you would have to release it and then make it the UN
I have no idea how you modded in new stuff so I don't know if this is even possible though.

[Eltoron]

I think no. It's not a right way. You can form military blocks like NATO using alliance mechanics. You, like international organisation, actually have asstets. In general they are represented by your resources. But also you can have assets in space as an organisation. I'm sure it's a very important part of gameplay and lore that you are international. You are influencing nations. Being not bind to any type of Earth nation or something like this. Every faction has a goal. Like any of international organisation. And non of this goals are close to the national government goals.

[Badger BrownCoat]

Originally posted by Eltoron:

Every faction has a goal. Like any of international organisation. And non of this goals are close to the national government goals.

Just as irl and in game; federations do not necessarily share the constituent nations' government goals-
if and when they do;
it would ( in game terms ) become a Unification rather than a Federation.

irl, that's exactly the issue with the UN; and why the League of Nations was a paper tiger unable to fulfill it's purpose-
- but also why there is hope ( if you consider it a good thing ) that we will move past nationalism and towards greater unions, perhaps even the UFP ( the Federation ) ideal.

SO, mechanically, while you disagree this is a good idea, again mechanically you're reinforcing that the current Federation mechanic can SUPERBLY represent that a Faction that's chosen or storied its way to no longer being only "shadow brokers"
while- at the same time, like real life nations and federations, being quite capable of shadow operations and puppet-stringing
is well-served by the mechanic: "Every faction has a goal. Like any of international organisation. And non of this goals are close to the national government goals"

"And non of this goals are close to the national government goals" - i'm pretty sure NOT being invaded or enslaved by aliens is EXACTLY the goal several factions are trying to get the nations behind, actually... :)
and you can bet your bottom dollar many national governments would NOT want to be invaded by another power even if it's led by Aliens. Alien-Nation XD

If you disagree that progressing from shadow brokers to Open Powers as you do already in the game via story missions should be more of a sea change than getting a new Org and some resources -
( see response #1 here, transplanted from the other thread ) -
I think that's just you and I have Very Different ideas of how much a Sea Change "coming out" should be ( or you're not as far into the story unlocks ) -
and either way is fine, thank you for the feedback <o

I'd add that historically, and in current events; the control of military assets or land ( or space land to be sure ) by non-governmental entities is something of a Very Loaded change under considerable scrutiny. That dang middle class turning into regional powers or replacing the Nobility really CAN piss off traditional powers! ... or the Hanseatic League or even the East Indies trade companies degree of independence as historical examples, or in current events, the "security forces" under control of large extra-national corporations that dwarf many nations military power. The 'cyberpunk' meme of corporations wresting control from traditional nation-states is not new or merely sci-fi.

[Aenno]

The most daring problems I see are mechanical ones.
1. Currently, tech doesn't give dynamic claims; I'm not sure if claims can be given through events in current iteration of engine, but even if it would. I bet it's not dynamics. Giving your faction-nation full claims onto world would be OP, I think, but giving them fixed claims can have no sense with specific political situation. It's possible to assume that each faction would have a proper powerbase, but it can be seen to artificial.
And after you created this claims, well, it's proper nation that works like proper nation; it would be quite weird to see your faction's state to secede after home country is plunged into chaos, OR "Humanity First" nation under the control of Initiative.
The same is about "just" federations. Federations are pretty linked to the countries.
2. World-size human state would be nearly impossible to wrestle control from.

[corisai]

Originally posted by Aenno:

2. World-size human state would be nearly impossible to wrestle control from.

Or taking it back once aliens will roll natural 0 on their mind-control magic :)

[Aenno]

Originally posted by corisai:

Originally posted by Aenno:

2. World-size human state would be nearly impossible to wrestle control from.

Or taking it back once aliens will roll natural 0 on their mind-control magic :)

I believe alien nations have inherit debuff to internal stability, and, as they're not players who can play it smart, it would quite possibly break. Still, if it's linked to a tag, not to the flag, it would be also hard to wrestle them from aliens as well, true.

[Badger BrownCoat]

Originally posted by Aenno:

The most daring problems I see are mechanical ones.
1. Currently, tech doesn't give dynamic claims; I'm not sure if claims can be given through events in current iteration of engine, but even if it would. I bet it's not dynamics. Giving your faction-nation full claims onto world would be OP, I think, but giving them fixed claims can have no sense with specific political situation. It's possible to assume that each faction would have a proper powerbase, but it can be seen to artificial.
And after you created this claims, well, it's proper nation that works like proper nation; it would be quite weird to see your faction's state to secede after home country is plunged into chaos, OR "Humanity First" nation under the control of Initiative.
The same is about "just" federations. Federations are pretty linked to the countries.
2. World-size human state would be nearly impossible to wrestle control from.

I suspect my guess was wrong and you're not after all into "Phantom Doctrine" and the old Illuminati game.

Anyway- as stated this was the for-players conceptual not the modding mechanics thread.
To modding and game dev, let's just say - this isn't my first rodeo, but thanks.
...If you want to discuss the mechanics of "how" and have modding or coding experience particularly in unity environment; we'd go over that in the mod forums, rather than the casual steam forums.


The game mechanics issues are ALREADY in the current game- changing the basis of federation to mutual defense/ goals rather than pre-invasion territorial disputes doesn't change that.
ALso- as already stated; I wasn't discussing the planet unification other than an "ideal" situation-
but as you can see illustrated HERE:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1176470/discussions/0/5595184948701318267/?tscn=1665860786
and:

Originally posted by myxlplykx:

Ive done it and recently made a reddit post about it. followed a different order which is interesting. went west to east.
https://www.reddit.com/r/TerraInvicta/comments/y4gwaa/comment/iseafam/?context=3

it's already in-game ; aside from being in no way addressed by what I was discussing modding.

Originally posted by post script:

admittedly asking the non-modder sites/ forums for feedback is usuallya fool's errand BUT I still like to try fro m people who actually play as opposed to just the POV of the tinkers

[Badger BrownCoat]

.. what if, rather than that reward being a shiny org, it was:
we have in effect declared ourself a federation ( think NATO or Warsaw pact etc ) - In game terms your faction is now in effect less shadow, but in return: a federation... so the federation owns the assets...
perhaps the end tech of that is to unlock the unification step up ( think future/idealized UN or a United Federation from Trek ).
would benefit but not make you unstoppable, used in-game mechanics to an internally logically consistent end, and is less weird than no one having a problem with shadow organizations OPENLY owning assets on that scale.

Originally posted by UN:

( relatedly : if the UN was a federation... ? - see the similar Nato mod for why it's not so easy- but imo UN is an odd thing to not be in game... I'm sure the Un would have NO reaction to such happenings )
replayed intro- Un secirity council is hand-waved as 'collapsing because RusMafia and China leave' - determinsist; no work needed to sabotage it; no work possible to save it.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/CatchPhrase/ScreenRantPitchMeetings

barely a inconvenience/ so the movie can happen [/quote]

[Badger BrownCoat]

temp hold https://steamcommunity.com/app/1176470/discussions/0/5595184948705744034/#c5595184948709094125

[corisai]

Originally posted by Badger BrownCoat:

we have in effect declared ourself a federation ( think NATO or Warsaw pact etc )

Except NATO should never be a federation in TI (current mechanics of alliance in game is better for them) as they're:
a) not obligated to share their resources (especially - providing free access to space launches, as federation combine their boost&income).
b) not obligated to fight for each other even in defensive war (surprise-sursprise, they only promise "assistance" in that case without clear definition of it).

[Badger BrownCoat]

Originally posted by corisai:

Originally posted by Badger BrownCoat:

we have in effect declared ourself a federation ( think NATO or Warsaw pact etc )

Except NATO should never be a federation in TI (current mechanics of alliance in game is better for them) as they're:
a) not obligated to share their resources (especially - providing free access to space launches, as federation combine their boost&income).
b) not obligated to fight for each other even in defensive war (surprise-sursprise, they only promise "assistance" in that case without clear definition of it).

Well; the OP wasn't about NATO...
and I'm not sure I agree - after all it is in effect a mutual defense pact -
and I'm pretty sure "not obligated" is debatable though I see your point-
they do share funding; but again, how obligated is a valid point.
I don't know enough offhand about the EUSPA to debate boost/mc
but if my understanding is correct it would not qualify by your logic to be a Federation in TI as they do not share boost. ANd only "mission control' in a specific limited sense - would that expand? separate point
It's food for thought, the line between alliance networks and Feds, so thank you for your input.

In any case; as I said; I wasn't adding NATO - even the ability to turn it into a Federation-
which is intriguing
there's already a mod for that -
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2874584259
but I think it's an example of how Federations in current game mechanics can serve a more interesting purpose.
- that these are more important and relevant to the game scenario than the Europa-U holdover of old territorial claims.

[Badger BrownCoat]

using dead thread to hold "to do" tinkerer's notes.

nothing to see here move along

Originally posted by Badger BrownCoat:
Brakiros- it may be a spoiler : i don't think everyone knows what happens when an alien agent enthralls- who gets it

- may i opine, imo- the alien shouldn't know early game they have allies-
it came up in a hate mechanic discussion;
but i gather you're further in than nay of my distracto-runs;
- am i off-base saying until the Serv's get their "talk to that" project done-
or the alien equivalent project-
am i off-base saying the Alines shoulnd't YET be aware they have an ally?
- it would be different if they were as they look- Cthulhu's people- and psychically "call of cthulhu ing" - as per other "xcom style" games, but I do belive that's far from the case here-
so should need intel / contact from one or other's research/ mission progress
I mean in terms of fairness and internal logical consistency...?

Originally posted by response Brakiros:

The Aliens already start out knowing everything thing, so maybe it will be something to change in future.

[Badger BrownCoat]

dead thread used as temp drop box
Nothing to see here move along

re: factions choices pt 2

list by faction
academy
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1176470/discussions/0/5595184948701426680/

Originally posted by Protectorate:

Originally posted by IronSides:

You may be playing with the foreknowledge of whats to come the factions do not.... Makes sense at first you would have one broad goal and as the situation gets more complicated you would have to adapt.

oh yeah- with several of the factions it's ideal vs "adapt".

Ideally- I would have liked the player to CHOOSE which of two+ goals to research at that point- player choice vs determinism- whereas in current game that choice is made for you, set in stone by your faction and you only 'discover' your one possible reaction to what could be an interesting moral quandry.
Opinion?
edit: didn't see Cap's post...

Originally posted by Captiva:

I turned them off in my second game. They did nothing but work hand and hand with aliens including getting resources from them and such.

They would literally declare war on a nation with one of theirs and immediately after the alien admin would too. It happened with about 20 nations. The Servants were not cooperating as much as they were.

The dude running them bothers me too, seems like a double standard kind of guy and more of a do as I say not as I do kind as well.

that's disturbing and confusing; I see why you turned them off.
and https://steamcommunity.com/app/1176470/discussions/0/5595184948710182279/#c3481871357422327746

servants --> hybrid/ adv story vs cult cirius route ( gene stl cults )

alien growths/ hybrid/ air eaters / zhuul-born-of-blood^flora_ork /