Played initiative, spoils don't make sense for their gameplay

[Swat__Raptor]

I was playing the initiative and I see talk about them exploiting and being greedy (aka using spoils) and projects that buff their spoils priority but it doesn't actually make sense given their victory goals.

Game play wise money is no more or less important for them than anyone else.

They have extra events that grant money rewards but again they dont have more uses for money than anyone else.

2nd given their victory goals, it doesn't make sense to trash earth, unlike like project exodus. They have equal reason to avoid GHG emissions as the Academy or The Resistence. It's not like they can pay money to give themselves protection vs climate change events, if they did that might be a interesting change in game play, but they don't so avoid GHG and even more so in versions past .40.

Honestly if you could build Arcologies that gave some lvl of immunity vs climate change that could make sense, basicly addressing the climate change problem by making the world more dystopian.

[corisai]

a) You're not forced to pick a faction-specific option in events. It's just an option.

b) Their victory goals have nothing to do with climate. It's 100% up to player to decide what to do (like for any other faction).

P.S. Trashing the Earth is actually the easiest winning strategy for Servants and Resistance doing "Phoenix" achievement :P

[Ericus1]

Actually, there are a couple of extremely expensive things only the Initiative can do, so there is a greater use for money.

And factions do have some unique orgs and techs, but it would be nice if they were a little more thematically distinguished. They definitely aren't to the level of something like Endless Space 2, but that may come with time.

[Agent Wigggles]

And the Initiative, is meant to be the analog to real life billionaires. They just gain more money. They have no extra use for the extra money. They know they're ruining the planet. BBut they dont care. Instead they build luxuary end of the world bunkers, or funding space programs to leave.

[Swat__Raptor]

Originally posted by Agent Wigggles:

And the Initiative, is meant to be the analog to real life billionaires. They just gain more money. They have no extra use for the extra money. They know they're ruining the planet. BBut they dont care. Instead they build luxuary end of the world bunkers, or funding space programs to leave.

They are not looking to leave, those billionaires are clearly project exodus. Bunkering up in fear is also never stated as a common or unifying interest.
Their unifying interest and goal is clearly power.

If they could make a enviroment proof arcologies I'm sure they would buy them,but that's not a game mechanic.

[corisai]

Originally posted by Agent Wigggles:

They know they're ruining the planet. BBut they dont care.

AFAIK one of Soren's quotes is exactly about it - little reason to rule a ruined planet. Don't treat Initiative as idiots or cinematic evil billionaires (even if devs allowing to roleplay them via few unique options in events).

Plus they're only faction that COMPLETELY eliminate risks of having another war with Hydra. So their ending is one of the best (if not the best).

[gimmethegepgun]

Originally posted by corisai:

Don't treat Initiative as idiots or cinematic evil billionaires (even if devs allowing to roleplay them via few unique options in events).

To be fair, those options tend to be in events for places that are already awful, like places in a civil war, where there's not really much value to be had in stabilizing the place, so they just loot it and call it a day.

[Swat__Raptor]

Originally posted by corisai:

Originally posted by Agent Wigggles:

They know they're ruining the planet. BBut they dont care.

AFAIK one of Soren's quotes is exactly about it - little reason to rule a ruined planet. Don't treat Initiative as idiots or cinematic evil billionaires (even if devs allowing to roleplay them via few unique options in events).

Plus they're only faction that COMPLETELY eliminate risks of having another war with Hydra. So their ending is one of the best (if not the best).

Alternatively You could add make global cO2 lvls a requirement. Maybe they view shaking up global power structures as a needed step to eliminate competition so they are engineering a disaster to bring that about, this would also reinforce their lack of ethics.

[corisai]

Originally posted by Swat__Raptor:

Alternatively You could add make global cO2 lvls a requirement.

Why??? Artificial limitation on playstyle are bad, especially there is no need of them.
You want to play Initiative as evil corp that ruining Earth on purpose? Fine, do it and get your dose of fun.
I like to play them as evil corp that pretending to care about average John and building an utopia... only to make easier to do their end-game move (avoiding major spoilers here). If everyone lives in luxury - you're not expecting any resistance to let's say drastical changes :)
We both are having fun and that's what trully matter.

P.S. Any rumors of orbital bombardment against rogue countries are just a fake news. Completing such atrocities is unacceptable in modern society.

Originally posted by Swat__Raptor:

this would also reinforce their lack of ethics

They don't lack of ethic - look their opening cinematic. Initiative is "survival of the fittest", Questionable morale? Yes. But it still an ethic.

[Sander]

Originally posted by corisai:

Originally posted by Agent Wigggles:

They know they're ruining the planet. BBut they dont care.

AFAIK one of Soren's quotes is exactly about it - little reason to rule a ruined planet. Don't treat Initiative as idiots or cinematic evil billionaires (even if devs allowing to roleplay them via few unique options in events).

Plus they're only faction that COMPLETELY eliminate risks of having another war with Hydra. So their ending is one of the best (if not the best).

The Initiative and Humanity First end goal projects are pretty much the same, as in - they do the thing Hydras fear the most and is one of the reasons why Hydras pre-emptively attack us. With this in mind, both projects have a fatal flaw in them that they dont account for pushback. The success of both projects ingame happens when you complete them, but in the alternate reality of TI universe it would only be the beginning. Expecting your enemies to lie down and get beaten to death or into submission as long as you get a sucker punch in first does not take into account that Hydras are the masters of pherocytes with experience in biological warfare. They WILL adapt and overcome. And then our solar system is not just a project for them anymore, we'll be the Pure Evil for their civilization to focus on.

Would have been interesting if Humanity First had a sort of post-credits moment where you could start researching into sending human operations through wormholes to take the fight to Hydras in the wake of the pherocytes, in a tone of "you learn from your enemies, you become what they were" just with less subterfuge and more Exterminatus

And Initiative could have done the same, but with less destruction and more about nurturing the Hydra version of Servants faction.

[gimmethegepgun]

Originally posted by Sander:

Originally posted by corisai:

AFAIK one of Soren's quotes is exactly about it - little reason to rule a ruined planet. Don't treat Initiative as idiots or cinematic evil billionaires (even if devs allowing to roleplay them via few unique options in events).

Plus they're only faction that COMPLETELY eliminate risks of having another war with Hydra. So their ending is one of the best (if not the best).

The Initiative and Humanity First end goal projects are pretty much the same, as in - they do the thing Hydras fear the most and is one of the reasons why Hydras pre-emptively attack us. With this in mind, both projects have a fatal flaw in them that they dont account for pushback. The success of both projects ingame happens when you complete them, but in the alternate reality of TI universe it would only be the beginning. Expecting your enemies to lie down and get beaten to death or into submission as long as you get a sucker punch in first does not take into account that Hydras are the masters of pherocytes with experience in biological warfare. They WILL adapt and overcome. And then our solar system is not just a project for them anymore, we'll be the Pure Evil for their civilization to focus on.

Would have been interesting if Humanity First had a sort of post-credits moment where you could start researching into sending human operations through wormholes to take the fight to Hydras in the wake of the pherocytes, in a tone of "you learn from your enemies, you become what they were" just with less subterfuge and more Exterminatus

And Initiative could have done the same, but with less destruction and more about nurturing the Hydra version of Servants faction.

For the Initiative one, they have to actually realize something is wrong before it's too late to do anything about it. Those who encounter it are already screwed up by it, and if they act normally they can spread it further without arousing suspicion and causing others to enact countermeasures. Unlike the HF one where it's really obvious when everything starts going dark.

[DevHyfes]

Originally posted by Swat__Raptor:

I was playing the initiative and I see talk about them exploiting and being greedy (aka using spoils) and projects that buff their spoils priority but it doesn't actually make sense given their victory goals.

I think you are over thinking it. TI, for all its depth and intrigue, runs some pretty shallow plot tropes. The initiative are your standard "in it for themselves" stereotype cliche. They are the guy who gets other people killed in a zombie movie so that they can come out on top. The Hammer Industries guy from Iron Man who will sell out their country and friends if they think it will get them ahead. They don't care if billions of people live in utter squalor, as long as people living the "right way" get a comfortable life.

Doing deep characters with complex motivations is hard, and can sometimes distract from your other gameplay if you don't spend time to get it right. On the other hand fictional tropes like the "Self Centered Darwinian Billionaire" are easy precisely because they resonate in culture- people see it and say "Oh I get it, this is [insert Billionaire they don't like]!" Everyone is on the same page and you can get on with your pew pew and alien mystery.

As you note, when you scratch through these shallow motivations, they don't make much sense. But, again, the effort of TI is spent on different mechanics, and its plot points are pretty standard Hollywood tropes. As another example, I did some math back when this first released and their Global Warming model is more of a Hollywood trope- close to 10x worse than IPCC projections. They no doubt did this because the reality of climate change is much more nuanced and difficult to model than "OMG FLOODS EVERYWHERE!"

[Ericus1]

0.4 reworked (and is still balancing) GW to be more realistic at least, but it is still quite a bit out of whack.

I do hope that in the future we see the various factions more fleshed out and "unique-ified". While they have semi-unique goals, orgs, and techs, other than Servants almost every faction follows the same general path through the game.

I was actually discussing that exact thing on the discord yesterday. For instance, one rough thought I had was to make Exodus morph into a faction that abandons Earth and resolves mostly around the space resources game. So in the same way the Servants can pretty much entirely ignore the space game and focus on Earth, Exodus would be the reverse. Think kind of like being the Belters from Expanse.

Obviously the game is still EA and there's a huge amount of work they have on their list to do, but maybe later in the development cycle this will become something they tackle.

[nephilimnexus]

In Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations" he makes the argument that the best way to be truly selfish is to operate to the benefit of all society rather than hoarding wealth, because the long-term payouts are actually greater than that of simple, direct avarice. Meaning if you spend your money to increase the wealth of your customers then they, in turn, will be able to buy more of your products. It's the reverse of "trickle down" economics - you help the poor so that the entire national GDP goes up, and then (as they say) the rising tide lifts all ships.

It is ironic that Adam Smith is considered the grandfather of American capitalism because, as is quite obvious, the modern American version of capitalism goes directly against everything that Adam Smith said one should do to create prosperity.

Anyway, point being, if you're playing the Initiative and you want to think outside the box of USA-think to a more globalized, enlightened version of things then your #1 goal shouldn't even be fighting the aliens but rather maximizing the GDP of every nation that you control and profiting off the Funding branch. Maximize the world's output and then grind down the aliens with industrial might, because you - and only you - can afford it. Wealthy nations produce more boost, more MC points and can field more numerous & advanced armies. They can support more stations & colonies.

To the Initiative, beating the aliens is just an inevitable by-product of bringing the world under their control and ushering in a new golden age of universal prosperity.

[Ninephoenix]

Originally posted by nephilimnexus:

In Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations" he makes the argument that the best way to be truly selfish is to operate to the benefit of all society rather than hoarding wealth, because the long-term payouts are actually greater than that of simple, direct avarice. Meaning if you spend your money to increase the wealth of your customers then they, in turn, will be able to buy more of your products. It's the reverse of "trickle down" economics - you help the poor so that the entire national GDP goes up, and then (as they say) the rising tide lifts all ships.

That's a misinterpretation, Adam Smith just said people are motivated by self interest and in doing so they benefit society “It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest.” Which is much more neutral.
Smith also recognized that excessive self-interest can lead to negative outcomes, such as exploitation and inequality. He believed that government intervention was necessary to regulate the market and ensure that individuals acted in a way that benefited society as a whole. So he has been called the inspiration for Marxism too.

Production is the source of wealth not spending. Being austere and miserly actually makes the economy more efficient as more resources can go to build better machines that mean you can sell goods for less, that truly improves wealth rather than wasteful consumption.
This is why Adam smith then wrote theories about moral sentiments as what you spend and invest in matters.
The greatest increases in wealth came from the Calvinist Protestant Capitalism described in The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism by Max Weber where, people believed in working super hard but considered luxuries a sin. Resulting in huge growth in Northern europe and Britain.

You aren't wrong though, the Initiative would try and enrich themselves in the process boost gdp and then use that to beat the aliens.

[Pawleus]

I could add, and it's not a joke, that enlightened/wise egoism is indistiguishable from altruism. I loved to roleplay ST Ferengi in this way in MP games with their Rules of Acquisition slightly modified - it was very surprising to people, especially supported by the Rules, and it created very funny source for AAR.

In my recent campaign I roleplayed the Initiative differently: as people that want to use the current wealth of Earth societies to aggressively develop huge space industries as fast as possible (by Spoils and heavy investments in MC/Boost) to win the war fast and cheap (it took 13 years from the start of the campaign and only small ships were used, up to Destroyer, while loosing less than 10 ships out of over 500) and prosper later when it would be time for fixing Earth with their enormous wealth from human and alien space assets/techs. Enormous wealth that even before the end of the campaign was used in a small part to massively Direct-Invest it back on Earth.