How to mid-game space?

[Qisrem]

I have a weird (dis)like of this game. I know how to Unify take over the whole Earth (fun), research nearly every late game tech (fun), clean the planet of aliens (fun) and prevent or get rid of the alien nation (fun), all WITHOUT getting the aliens to hate me, but I have no idea how to battle in space (not fun)...

So, I can make a 3x doom-stack end game fleets on Earth, Mars and Mercury at the same time, and then slowly push out, but this takes forever and is super boring... (did it once, uninstalled the game afterwards)

I can try to push for space with tier3 ships (coil / green arch), but I get wiped. <- I feel this is not normal.

So, what is your defence fleet? How many ships, which tier with which weapon tech?? (I assume around 2030ish??)

How do you (can you even) guard a tier 2 stations? Do I need 4 defence stations?

I don't mind "just get good" or "keep trying" comments, but would appreciate some feedback on when(+-year), with what(fleet build) decide to push back. (Those who do not wait until 2045)

Cheers

[Ericus1]

This would be a lot easier to answer on the discord, where I could just show you screenshots of ship designs of various tiers. You'd also get much more active feedback and quicker responses. I would actively recommend joining it.

I'll start by saying that green arcs are not tier 3, they are tier 2 at best, and low tier 2 at that. You need either UV or phasers (or both) to be tier 3. Also, a coil is not a coil - the difference between coil 1 and coil 3 is enormous in terms of effectiveness in no small part because the rate of fire and speed of the kinetic is significantly different which dramatically impacts PD.

As for a timeline, you can defeat early to mid game (2020s-2030s) alien ships with nothing but escorts loaded with tier 1 Artemis missiles and basic Diana or Nova drives, with a 40mm cannon PD-dedicated ship mixed in. Personally, I start total war literally as soon as my Mars mines are up and running and I get my initial dockyards up, which is ~2025-26. And the earlier you start the easier time you have because the aliens will be constantly losing ships and resources and so won't be building up large fleet stacks to send your way. But you don't need to start that earlier to be successful.

And you aren't going to be able to defend an orbital hab with static defense alone - this is where the missile escort fleets are effective. You can use static defenses to push the AI to attack undefended stations elsewhere where your fleets can deal with them instead. Static defenses on ground habs are much better, with 2 LDAs usually enough to get them to leave that hab alone and look for easier targets elsewhere.

[Qisrem]

Originally posted by Ericus1:

This would be a lot easier to answer on the discord, where I could just show you screenshots of ship designs of various tiers. You'd also get much more active feedback and quicker responses. I would actively recommend joining it.

I'll start by saying that green arcs are not tier 3, they are tier 2 at best, and low tier 2 at that. You need either UV or phasers (or both) to be tier 3. Also, a coil is not a coil - the difference between coil 1 and coil 3 is enormous in terms of effectiveness in no small part because the rate of fire and speed of the kinetic is significantly different which dramatically impacts PD.

As for a timeline, you can defeat early to mid game (2020s-2030s) alien ships with nothing but escorts loaded with tier 1 Artemis missiles and basic Diana or Nova drives, with a 40mm cannon PD-dedicated ship mixed in. Personally, I start total war literally as soon as my Mars mines are up and running and I get my initial dockyards up, which is ~2025-26. And the earlier you start the easier time you have because the aliens will be constantly losing ships and resources and so won't be building up large fleet stacks to send your way. But you don't need to start that earlier to be successful.

And you aren't going to be able to defend an orbital hab with static defense alone - this is where the missile escort fleets are effective. You can use static defenses to push the AI to attack undefended stations elsewhere where your fleets can deal with them instead. Static defenses on ground habs are much better, with 2 LDAs usually enough to get them to leave that hab alone and look for easier targets elsewhere.

Read over your post and spent a bit of time looking into how armour works and how much aliens have it, and now a bunch of stuff clicked... What I had did no dmg.

Never used missiles (never found it cool) except for SUPER EASILY killing the first alien ship... ARGH....

Ok, I think I'm good now!

[Asuzu]

My typical "F You" defense fleets I launch to come out of the closet are 4-6 Dakka Dreadnaughts in orbits of Earth, Mars, Ceres, and Mercury simultaneously.

https://imgur.com/gallery/terra-invicta-dakka-dreadnaught-titan-fits-vFZ57K1

Yes, those are 1-slot coilguns :)
The amount of projectiles flying in the way of any enemy ship is ridiculous and there is no point defense capable to stop it. The swarm of projectiles chokes any ship from small to large usually in one salvo.

It takes about 10+ alien ships to even think to compete with my defense fleets, and normally my defense fleets can beat around 20+ ships strong attack. They also help me clean up and take over any AI faction bases on Moon and Mars to establish superiority.

After I research the Antimatter drives, I release the Dakka Titans, push back, clean up for my rangers to follow, and take over anything in their way.

It might not be perfect, but ridiculous and fun to watch these fights.

[Premu]

I'm in a similar position in my current Humanity First game. It's 2038, and on earth I'm the dominant faction and managed to secure the EU, China, India, Central Asia and recently the USA. Fortunately the Servants don't control anything with nukes, their powerbase is in South America. They recently started the Alien Nation in Brasil which was quickly overwhelmed by a multi-faction coalition. But most likely they'll reemerge again.

My problem is space, specifically drives. I have good weapons for my ships, but I don't have a drive which provides me a good compromise of acceleration and range. The best I have right now is the burner drive which doesn't really cut it. I'd love to build powerful battleships, but these would be useless if they can't catch anything. And going to full scale war with smaller ships means I'll lose a lot of those which I have to replace regularily, and I don't think I could substain that very long based on my mine income.

Which drive would you recommend as intermediate solution to have at least good defensive battleships for Earth, Mars and Mercury? The first fusion technologies have been researched already, but the really powerful fusion drives a quite a long way to go.

[Blaarg]

For mid-game defensive ships that basically don't need to travel between systems, some good options are:
The pegasus drive. More of an early midgame drive, it does not get great fuel efficiency with its 16 kps EV, but the combat acceleration is unparalleled for its research cost. This is why it is a low % roll to unlock, though.
The three advanced fission system drives using terawatt gas cores. They have quite good combat accelerations. Their EV isn't quite high enough for interplanetary stuff, but it should be good enough for defensive fleets. The latter two are even open-cycle, so you don't have to pay for a large radiator.
The Orion or H-Orion. Respectable combat acceleration with good EV. If only the fuel wasn't so expensive. Do note when looking at these that you can only fit one on a ship, not the x6 that you can with many other drives. So the 120MN combat thrust of an H-Orion is comparable to a 20MN combat thrust from a different drive that you would slap on an x6 with.

[Cyborg]

Initiative game 2033, Normal with Aliens at 90% and Tech at 115%, guaranteed unlocks.

Moon is bare but have half of Mars and Mercury.

Went to total war with the Aliens a few years ago (Escorts w. Pegasus and Vipers) and have managed to kill everything that fights in Earth/Merc/Mars, but can't stop the Hydra transports since they have more Delta-V and I have problems expanding anywhere else besides the inner Asteroid belt.

Things are quiet and I just got Helicon drives, so was thinking of sending a swarm to raid the Alien Base at Vesta.

What weapon loadout should I choose? I have Ares/Poseidon, Vipers, Laser PD and 6 inch guns. Any point in attempting a Bombardment or do I need to research something specific?

[gimmethegepgun]

Originally posted by Cyborg:

6 inch guns.

Why are you using 6 inch guns?

[Cyborg]

Originally posted by gimmethegepgun:

Originally posted by Cyborg:

6 inch guns.

Why are you using 6 inch guns?

Those are my researched weapons.

[gimmethegepgun]

Originally posted by Cyborg:

Originally posted by gimmethegepgun:

Why are you using 6 inch guns?

Those are my researched weapons.

Well, the conventional guns other than the 40mm are basically completely useless, you'd want to research magnetic weapons if you wanted a kinetic weapon to use.

[Pawleus]

Originally posted by Cyborg:

Went to total war with the Aliens a few years ago (Escorts w. Pegasus and Vipers) and have managed to kill everything that fights in Earth/Merc/Mars, but can't stop the Hydra transports since they have more Delta-V and I have problems expanding anywhere else besides the inner Asteroid belt.

Have you tried to attack the transports during their deceleration phase using Helicon Escorts with torpedoes?

Originally posted by Cyborg:

Things are quiet and I just got Helicon drives, so was thinking of sending a swarm to raid the Alien Base at Vesta.

What weapon loadout should I choose? I have Ares/Poseidon, Vipers, Laser PD and 6 inch guns. Any point in attempting a Bombardment or do I need to research something specific?

Poseidon/Helicon combo is strongly preferable for this role. PD only if you have to. Instead of bombardment I would use marines.

[Cyborg]

Originally posted by Pawleus:

Originally posted by Cyborg:

Went to total war with the Aliens a few years ago (Escorts w. Pegasus and Vipers) and have managed to kill everything that fights in Earth/Merc/Mars, but can't stop the Hydra transports since they have more Delta-V and I have problems expanding anywhere else besides the inner Asteroid belt.

Have you tried to attack the transports during their deceleration phase using Helicon Escorts with torpedoes?

Originally posted by Cyborg:

Things are quiet and I just got Helicon drives, so was thinking of sending a swarm to raid the Alien Base at Vesta.

What weapon loadout should I choose? I have Ares/Poseidon, Vipers, Laser PD and 6 inch guns. Any point in attempting a Bombardment or do I need to research something specific?

Poseidon/Helicon combo is strongly preferable for this role. PD only if you have to. Instead of bombardment I would use marines.

Thanks, academic now as Aliens destroyed my fleet and all Faction stations around Mars.

What's my next drive after Pegasus/Helicon? An old thread recommends Neutron Torch?

A lack of water is crippling me despite using farms everywhere, I really underestimated how much I need. Plenty of Volatiles, Metals and Fissiles.

[Pawleus]

If you can't defend with Pegasus/Helicon ships (which should be enough with good designs and tactics) next drives to research I would recommend are Flare or Firestar (they would replace Pegasus) - last time I checked Neutron Torch is not worth it, currently. However, if you need your ships to be substantially cheaper and better armored at the same time and also replace Helicon while still providing excellent maneuverability in combat, the soonest option is the Antimatter Pulsed Plasma Core Drive.

Edit: BTW, about your Water problems, I would recommend early Pegasus Escorts to not have more than 1 drive and 8 tanks with only so much armor (on their tails) that they are still 4G ships - with Liquid Hydrogen Containment and Targeting Computer they still should have about 14km/s deltaV which is usually enough for maneuverable missile combat and transfers within the Jovian System (and might be enough for disengaging in case of failure in destroying enemy ships and for moving away as the first maneuver during combat).

Helicon Escorts should also be designed carefully to limit their tanks within reason and always it should be considered whether or not use a more propellant-efficient trajectory and less number of ships (also in case of Pegasus ships).

[Cyborg]

Originally posted by Pawleus:

If you can't defend with Pegasus/Helicon ships (which should be enough with good designs and tactics) next drives to research I would recommend are Flare or Firestar (they would replace Pegasus) - last time I checked Neutron Torch is not worth it, currently. However, if you need your ships to be substantially cheaper and better armored at the same time and also replace Helicon while still providing excellent maneuverability in combat, the soonest option is the Antimatter Pulsed Plasma Core Drive.

I didn't realise the importance of Liquid Hydrogen Containment and deltaV management for admin moves, that also dried me out.

I'm looking for water efficiency. I'm using boost a lot in my fights, also to learn the manouvering system, which is why my 11-12kps escorts are mostly dry after each fight.

I was slow off the mark to get my water mining operation going since I didn't anticipate the scale I needed. now I have colony ships going out to the Asteroids but this will take time to remedy. At 700 month net now at 2034, was half that until a year ago and I realised this was no where near enough.

Also didn't realise that armour points, not armour thickness was important, so was using boron carbide instead of silicone as it showed more thickness per point.

[gimmethegepgun]

Originally posted by Cyborg:

Also didn't realise that armour points, not armour thickness was important, so was using boron carbide instead of silicone as it showed more thickness per point.

Technically thickness does matter in one respect, which is that chipping is calculated as a certain volume of armor removed, but that's really minor compared to making sure that it doesn't get through in the first place.