Advice on building up space industry

[SirChaos77]

So most factions appear to have to expand into space and build up the industry needed to construct a warship fleet that can take on the aliens - the Protectorate and the Servants seems to be the exception here.

With that in mind, what do you all think is the best way to do that quickly? You need roughly 70 Boost total to put an base with a mining facility and solar power on the moon; that´s the first big bottleneck in the space race.

I see two potential routes to getting there: Grab Kazakhstan and Russia for about 3 Boost per month plus 3 MIssion Control, or grab Japan (plus possibly the two Koreas since at least they have both completed the Space Program priority already) and concentrate on building up the capacity.
The US and China are virtually impossible to grab early on (and to hold with the kind of capacity you have initially), France doesn´t have a particularly learge economy and distributes most of its Boost to the rest of the European Union, while India is hard to grab, expensive to hold and slow to convince via public campaign, and starts with a whopping 0.1 Boost per month.

Does anybody have any thoughts on the matter?

[Premu]

Actually, the USA are a good choice to grab as first main nation. Secure Canada and Mexico first, then with a few public campaigns you will be able to break into the USA.

Your original CP limit will not allow you to hold anything besides the USA - so once you got it, abandon Mexico and Canada. Although I like to grab Canada again later once I have more CP as it is a great mission control producer.

Should you get more free CP, you can even get greedier, take Khazakstan and remove it from the Eurasian Union. So you'll have both of the best boost producers early one. Produce a little bit more if you want to speed up your space game.

One big advantage of the USA is as it's hard to break into it's also easy to defend against hostile takeovers. And it provides you with a decent amount of money, plenty of research and the best military at game start. Make it your big stick!

[Twelvefield]

The Moon is okay, and you do kind of need it to get going, but if you're late to that race it's not hard to bootstrap your way into deeper space, especially Mars and beyond. You still do need to be active in space and space exploration, but if the AI is too aggressive at least one faction will overextend their CP. Then all you need to do is trade for their bases and you get a very fast leg up in the early/mid space race.

Getting that CP for yourself is a larger trick. My thinking is that Russia and Kazakhstan are easier to grab, but they are problematic in terms of their geopolitics. I've never had any luck with Japan and the Koreas, but that doesn't mean it isn't possible. I find I get stalled with public opinion and then kind of end up in a quagmire.

I have yet to get USA to tumble, but like our friend Premu says, Canada + Mexico should unlock that gate. With the USA, you have many advantages over the rest of the map until you have to deal with India and China.

[gimmethegepgun]

Oprindeligt skrevet af SirChaos77:

You need roughly 70 Boost total to put an base with a mining facility and solar power on the moon; that´s the first big bottleneck in the space race.

More like 55 iirc, assuming you research Interplanetary Chemical Rockets. Which you obviously should.

Grab Kazakhstan and Russia for about 3 Boost per month plus 3 MIssion Control

You don't need to grab Russia. If you Coup Kazakhstan then it won't be part of the EAU any more and you can just use its Boost.

France doesn´t have a particularly learge economy and distributes most of its Boost to the rest of the European Union

France into EU is pretty much universally agreed upon to be the strongest start, because it's where a huge amount of the economy of the world is, while being relatively easy to take, is stable, and the starting decentralization works immensely in your favor because it means far more IPs that can be spent on MC, which they can all do because they're part of the EU federation.

Does anybody have any thoughts on the matter?

UK, Mexico, Brazil, Saudi Arabia, Gulf States, Iran, Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, and Australia all have solid economies and are close to the equator (Brazil and Mexico need some work to keep them stable though), making them good places for Boost (UK (I think?) and Iran also start with Spaceflight Program, and Australia is partway to it). Canada is partway to Spaceflight Program and also has a solid economy, though obviously it's far from the equator.

[SirChaos77]

Thanks for the replies, guys.

It appears that Luna is pretty poor compared to Mars, or Mercury for that matter. There´s only one site with Noble Metals, and you usually have to be quick to get there before the AI snatches it away; also, there´s barely any water or volatiles, not enough to support a major operation without losing a lot of Boost income to water and volatile upkeep. Skipping Luna and going straight for Mars sounds like a viable strategy. Better get Fission Piles before you build a hab on Mars, though, because solar collectors aren´t going to do much out there.

Also, I disagree on not grabbing Russia. It has a decent economy and science income, compared to how hard it is to take control, it has decent-ish Boost income to supplement Kazakhstan (and unlike with the EU, you have more than enough control cap to grab all the members of the EAU) , and it´s the quickest way to get 3 Mission Control points early on.

[LorDC]

Right now the best strategy is to grab France and Kazkhstan then start expanding EU, while building MC in member states. The actual bottleneck on space economy is MC, not boost, which is only needed for you first couple of sites.

[Pawleus]

Actually, in later game Boost can be a bottleneck on space economy in strategies of building large space economy - you need a lot of it for money-giving modules (at the end of my recent game I had -5838 cash per day) or sell a lot of Antimatter. However, I also consider the EU start to be the strongest one.

[gimmethegepgun]

Oprindeligt skrevet af SirChaos77:

It appears that Luna is pretty poor compared to Mars, or Mercury for that matter.

But it's cheaper to get there than Mars, which allows it to be a good first step on your path to space colonization, mainly for getting enough Metals, which are the great majority of the mass that needs to be Boosted to get a hab + power + mine set up.
Mercury is basically a complete non-starter for Boost. It takes iirc about 700 Boost to get a Mine on Mercury, with 2 of the 3 Boost-cost reductions. It's absolutely HORRIBLE to try to Boost anything there.

There´s only one site with Noble Metals

The yields are random. There may be more than one, though there's never very much. That said, Luna is occasionally a great source of Fissiles.

and it´s the quickest way to get 3 Mission Control points early on.

Who cares? You can't use them for a while, which is plenty enough time for some random single-region EU country to build 3 MC before France annexes it.

[[NcK]MasterShake|CM]

I'm certainly not an expert, but I've spent some time futzing around with potential openings and found the Canada/Mexico/US opening to be the most reliable, but also kind of the most boring. But, you can get the US into pretty good shape within a year and have strong research output that will allow you to cherry pick early game technological development which is an enormous boon. Canada is pretty good for an MC feeder and Mexico you can abandon once it's convenient to do so... there are generally better options. Even a graft/spoils state in the middle east seems a better option, to me.

France/EU is great for MC building and then consolidation, but it seems the AI intentionally contests a lot of it... moreso than the other options. You also have to keep an eye on the nuclear stockpiles of Russia/USA to make sure the fundies don't find themselves in charge of a very capable military, a huge pile of nukes or both.

China is a decent option if your faction starts with a majority influence in China. Otherwise it seems better options are available at the opening. Same story with India really... it takes too much initial investment to get your foot in the door for either of these two. Yes the research will pay off in the long run with their huge populations, I'm just talking about opening moves here.

Russia is a mess, but easy to take, light on CP use, easy to consolidate into EAU-- but it's so easy to do so that you'll be tempted to do so [I'm making progress!] too early instead of using the little satellite republics to build up MC for several years before pulling them into the fold.

Kazakhstan with any of these is a go-to. USA + Kazakhstan will yield more than enough boost to get you into space and up and mining on the moon and mars-- especially with I.P. chemical rockets and nuclear freighters. Grab it early to start the countdown to get it out of that insufferable union. Be sure to bring it under a nuclear umbrella.

There's usually only one, maybe two sites on Luna that are worth anything, it is advisable to go for the broadest spectrum of resources on Luna unless the extraction rates for volatiles and water wind up being below the maintenance rates [1.6, is it? 1.3 maybe?]. Ideally, the Mars expedition can be fed entirely from Luna, but you may just get a crappy Luna and need to boost from Earth anyhow.

Get your probes there early, establish your base there early-- even if you don't have the lift [or even the tech] for mining. They need to be on their way the second the tech finishes so you can take your pick of the litter.

So for me:
Priority 1: Fifth councellor
Priority 2: Cheaper space operations [nuke freighter, IP rockets]
Priority 3: Mining outpost

[gimmethegepgun]

Oprindeligt skrevet af NcKMasterShake|CM:

Ideally, the Mars expedition can be fed entirely from Luna, but you may just get a crappy Luna and need to boost from Earth anyhow.

There's rarely enough water or volatiles to sustain itself unless you rush Hydroponics. It's mainly just for getting some Metals since that's the largest portion of what you need to Boost for a mine, and it's much cheaper to send one to Luna than to Mars.

[[NcK]MasterShake|CM]

Oprindeligt skrevet af gimmethegepgun:

There's rarely enough water or volatiles to sustain itself unless you rush Hydroponics. It's mainly just for getting some Metals since that's the largest portion of what you need to Boost for a mine, and it's much cheaper to send one to Luna than to Mars.

It's certainly not something you'd hold long term, but in my plays it has generally provided enough to drastically reduce the boost cost of Mars operations. They can certainly be gifted to less hostile factions for favor once Mars ops are up and running to save the MC cost. If none of the sites can provide enough to even tread water, it should be skipped. It doesn't have to be incredibly positive... just positive. Again, this is ideally. As you say, often the dice do not cooperate.

[SirChaos77]

The problem with Luna is twofold, in my experience.

Firstly, it´s rarely possible to get all five resources on Luna without building two, often three outposts. And for the price of two outposts on Luna, you can build one on Mars which will have all five resources - with some lucky dice rolls, you can find a spot on Mars that outproduces all of Luna in everything but base metals.

Secondly, it´s even more rare for an outpost to have both enough water and enough volatiles to be self-sufficient, much less build up a stockpile. An outpost with a solar collector and a mining complex needs something like 1.5 water and 1.5 volatiles per month - and anything you don´t produce cuts into your Boost production because you have to ship water and volatiles to your outpost. And if you need two or even three outposts to get all five resources... I´ve had playthroughs were all of Luna combined doesn´t produce 4.5 volatiles per month.

[gimmethegepgun]

Oprindeligt skrevet af SirChaos77:

The problem with Luna is twofold, in my experience.

Firstly, it´s rarely possible to get all five resources on Luna without building two, often three outposts. And for the price of two outposts on Luna, you can build one on Mars which will have all five resources - with some lucky dice rolls, you can find a spot on Mars that outproduces all of Luna in everything but base metals.

Secondly, it´s even more rare for an outpost to have both enough water and enough volatiles to be self-sufficient, much less build up a stockpile. An outpost with a solar collector and a mining complex needs something like 1.5 water and 1.5 volatiles per month - and anything you don´t produce cuts into your Boost production because you have to ship water and volatiles to your outpost. And if you need two or even three outposts to get all five resources... I´ve had playthroughs were all of Luna combined doesn´t produce 4.5 volatiles per month.

That's why you don't take all of Luna. You take one site to get Metals, which is by far the most Boost-intensive part of getting a mine set up on Mars.

[[NcK]MasterShake|CM]

Oprindeligt skrevet af SirChaos77:

The problem with Luna is twofold, in my experience.

Firstly, it´s rarely possible to get all five resources on Luna without building two, often three outposts. And for the price of two outposts on Luna, you can build one on Mars which will have all five resources - with some lucky dice rolls, you can find a spot on Mars that outproduces all of Luna in everything but base metals.

Secondly, it´s even more rare for an outpost to have both enough water and enough volatiles to be self-sufficient, much less build up a stockpile. An outpost with a solar collector and a mining complex needs something like 1.5 water and 1.5 volatiles per month - and anything you don´t produce cuts into your Boost production because you have to ship water and volatiles to your outpost. And if you need two or even three outposts to get all five resources... I´ve had playthroughs were all of Luna combined doesn´t produce 4.5 volatiles per month.

Yeah, you're usually going to be deficient on something... aim for the cheapest and least used material. I'm looking for water and metals on Luna mostly, and have had a pretty decent fissiles node generate from time to time. Best values, widest spectrum, absolutely no more than two outposts. I'll try skipping Luna my next start and let you know if it works out better for me just rushing Mars.

I also revise what I said earlier about the European start. Merging France and Germany for the base and then using many of the satellite states to churn MC. Once they max out on MC fold them into the union. I'd have to look at the save again, but I think I had something like 60MC late 2025. Combine this with Israel and Kazakhstan pretty much on 100% boost and you shouldn't have any problems getting anything anywhere. It's also worth mentioning that you should probably keep a pure graft state [Iraq?] prior to about 2030 and just milk it for everything it's worth. Those admin and boost orgs can get pricey.

I do think nuclear freighters and interplanetary chemical rockets will help you the most. It sounds like you're having a lift problem. Resistance is guaranteed IP chemical rocket research and if you're the party that has the most research on [I'm stupid and forget which tech unlocks nuclear freighters, but that one] as Resistance, it's going to be pretty close to guaranteed.

Absolutely nothing on the moon is ever going to be worth 70 early game boost, so there are some prerequisites you've missed for Lunar operations-- and if you don't have them: Mars isn't going to be any better.

[gimmethegepgun]

Oprindeligt skrevet af NcKMasterShake|CM:

Resistance is guaranteed IP chemical rocket research

Everyone is guaranteed to get IPCR. The other Boost projects from the tech are the ones that aren't guaranteed unless you put a lot into the global tech.

[I'm stupid and forget which tech unlocks nuclear freighters, but that one]

Solid Core Fission Systems.

[SirChaos77]

Oprindeligt skrevet af gimmethegepgun:

That's why you don't take all of Luna. You take one site to get Metals, which is by far the most Boost-intensive part of getting a mine set up on Mars.

Like I said, it´s not just the construction costs, it´s the upkeep as well. Every base with a mining complex eats 1.5 water and 1.5 volatiles per month, which takes 3 Boost per month if you don´t produce them.

I think going for Luna first is only worth it if you can find a single site there that is at least self-sufficient in water and volatiles and has a decent metals output - which in my experience so far is not guaranteed.

If you can´t get that, you´re stuck paying Boost to make up for the shortfall, all the way until you get mining on Mars set up, which can take another year or two. You´ll also pay maybe 40 Boost to get the Luna base set up, to save up to 70 Boost in setting up the Mars base (assuming you have a stockpile of all the materials); if the sum of the Boost upkeep you need to pay for the Luna base and the Boost cost of the materials that Luna doesn´t generate a stockpile of is 30 or higher, going for Luna is a net loss - and one that´ll keep two points of Mission Control tied up as well.