Hundreds of alien ships in a fleet

[Pepzi]

Hello, I am at year 2041 and just managed to destroy an alien warship for the objective. Aliens promptly started attacking me which was to be expected but a month or 2 in they sent a fleet with 172 ships and 23.2k power, how am I supposed to defend against that? Even if I had maxed out my mission control with ships I'd have at most 30-50 ships.
I guess my question is
is this normal? Was I just way too slow on building a fleet?

[gimmethegepgun]

Destroying your first ship in 2041? You should've accomplished that like a decade ago. It's no wonder they have so many ships.

[Mavrah]

Originally posted by Pepzi:

Hello, I am at year 2041 and just managed to destroy an alien warship for the objective. Aliens promptly started attacking me which was to be expected but a month or 2 in they sent a fleet with 172 ships and 23.2k power, how am I supposed to defend against that? Even if I had maxed out my mission control with ships I'd have at most 30-50 ships.
I guess my question is
is this normal? Was I just way too slow on building a fleet?

I'd say trick them into attacking your defensive installations, ground- or space-based.
Plus side is that they won't be able to utilize all those ships in battle at once. Or drain them of Delta-V and trap them.

[corisai]

Originally posted by Pepzi:

Even if I had maxed out my mission control with ships I'd have at most 30-50 ships.

You're expected to have 200+MC at this age :)

If you have many 5.5+ military tech armies with navy - you could endure alien land invasion. If not - nukes will be your only remaining option.

Originally posted by Pepzi:

I'd say trick them into attacking your defensive installations, ground- or space-based.

It will not work - devs fixed station defenses long ago (AI was going on suicidal point blank range vs stationary defenses).

[Snork]

solution is to stop being suicidal and attacking the superior alien species. Make friends, destroy the puny human resistance. Much easier.

[Vigor]

I'm in 2037 and there is a fleet of 20 or so alien ships + the mothership at a platform they took from some humans orbiting earth. It seems to me that the h8 meter + CP cap is bound and determined to keep you ineffective. I could do so much more but I feel unprepared to build ships nonstop at 13 platforms and that is what I would need to do if I went to war. I intended to take a 2nd stab at taking Europa to get the war going but I have now missed my launch window twice... I think the game really needs an alarm of some sort. I.e. remind me on Jan 9 to do xyz. I think it would also be helpful to be able to view launch windows from your current location. Even then I would like the precise date I would want to launch. I would like to make my trip out there quick so I don't provide them a lot of time to react.

Aliens have probably nerfed me out of the blue on 5 occasions already. The mothership has been at earth for almost 10 years.

EDIT: And in the 15 game days after I made this post probably another 20 showed up.

EDIT2: So i counted the number of alien ships right after my previous edit 116 ships including a mothership and at least 3 other big ones. I have 64 ships. About 50 of those are using grid drive and 10 using burner. 4 don't have weapons.

[corisai]

Originally posted by Vigor:

About 50 of those are using grid drive and 10 using burner.

So you have only 10 combat-capable ships. Well... you're in trouble

[gimmethegepgun]

Originally posted by corisai:

Originally posted by Vigor:

About 50 of those are using grid drive and 10 using burner.

So you have only 10 combat-capable ships. Well... you're in trouble

Depends on armor and armament. If they have capable medium-long range weapons and good armor they can probably just Great Wall to victory.

[corisai]

Originally posted by gimmethegepgun:

Depends on armor and armament. If they have capable medium-long range weapons and good armor they can probably just Great Wall to victory.

With Grid engine? Good armor? O_O

Aside from recent changes to interception, Grid:
a) don't allow to use missiles efficienty (you can't boost their speed & pack them via acceleration).
b) don't allow to use beam weapons efficiently (you are not going to rush to enemies without eating all their ammo first)
c) not very efficient even with kinetics as you're going to eat all enemy missiles (can't rush to sides to reduce their danger)

That's why I never consider ion-grid ships to be combat capable. Their only use is for suicide boats and they're useless past few first alien ships.

[Vigor]

Originally posted by corisai:

Originally posted by Vigor:

About 50 of those are using grid drive and 10 using burner.

So you have only 10 combat-capable ships. Well... you're in trouble

I can't build more without provoking the h8 meter and the upkeep for stations is so tremendous I have to devote most of my mission control to the production of resources.

Gimme
Depends on armor and armament. If they have capable medium-long range weapons and good armor they can probably just Great Wall to victory.

Most of my ships have 1 rattler missle and 1 particle mk1 pt defense or another heavier missle. It seems to me that rattlers do the best job of overwhelming enemy PD. Since they are fast I normally wait to fire missles so they don't show up too far ahead of the other missles to be of use.
I would estimate I have 2-4 2x missle ships to every PD ship because I am close to getting particle PD MK2 so I figured I would wait to build the PDs until I get the research (i have all of the other MK2 particle research already) At earth, where the problem is, I have been bleeding ships much faster than elsewhere. Elsewhere I have closer to a 1:1 ratio of all missle to rattler/PD.

It seems to me that in combat I should be able to turn off a weapons system. Other missles are so much slower than rattlers, being forced to fire them simultaneously makes overwhelming the enemy less effective. I would like the ability to fire the slow missles ASAP, then launch the cloud of rattlers so that they arrive at the target just before the slow missles. I also think it would be helpful if I could set a posture for each weapons system so that the rattlers don't go trying to do the PD's job. Currently I am using offensive posture and only switching individual ships to balanced or defensive as needed.

I also had a battle where the battle ended before all of the ordinance had finished going to targets or I might have killed the enemies that had killed me. I thought they fixed that.

For armor, my newest ships have 43 diamondoid frontal armor with 19 lateral armor and 23 engine armor. It seems to me aliens tend to aim at engines first and because I'm using grid my ships are not always maneuverable enough to try to face the enemy which is firing at them. The rest of my ships have 39 diamondoid frontal/17 lateral/19 engine. I use all prime numbers in hope that they will frustrate enemy decision making.

I was intending to improve my fleet with new particle PD mk2 ships but I haven't gotten the research yet.

Then I intended to put 3, 1 larger (1 slot) particle weapons on frigates and put 1 frigate with each fleet. I thought I had railgun tech but I do not. I don't even have the global research yet. My lasers are green and seem entirely ineffective. But, no matter what I want to build, I am right on the edge of h8 meter triggering. If I want to add more ships without triggering it I have to turn mines off. I have received and completed 2 h8 meter increase research (??? and Maskirovka)

None of my burner ships have actually seen combat yet. I have only been building them at asteroids where my fleets are smaller, never have to fly anywhere, but need to accomplish more. Burner is way better than any other drive I have seen but it still appears to be prone to running out of fuel and costing a lot of water which I don't have in abundance. I'm using grid because I have to.

It was my intention to take Europa(Jupiter moon) for more water but when I tried early on the aliens would start attacking me the moment I arrive. My biggest fleet has been sitting and waiting to go to Europa again but I keep missing my launch window. That being said, the aliens have so many ships I don't think it really matters how much I send to Europa. Once I beat 1 fleet they will just send the mothership+as many ships as they need to to push me off it again.

[corisai]

Originally posted by Vigor:

I can't build more without provoking the h8 meter and the upkeep for stations is so tremendous I have to devote most of my mission control to the production of resources.

If you're going into total war with aliens - why care about their hatred? If not - then you're eating losses and rebuild as nothing could be done. It's pretty simply :)

I mean - yes, ship destroyed by station defenses are increasing aliens hate too.

Originally posted by Vigor:

Most of my ships have 1 rattler missle and 1 particle mk1 pt defense or another heavier missle.

I have a sad news for you - most of your ships are suicidal missile boats :) You can't have a good survival ration with Grid engines.

And particle Mk1 battery is horrible pick for a PD weapon. Even 60cm Arc lasers are questionable compated with dedicated PD Arc lasers - they still lack range so require you to pack your fleet into more tight group ... that you're unable to do with Grid engines :)

Originally posted by Vigor:

For armor, my newest ships have 43 diamondoid frontal armor with 19 lateral armor and 23 engine armor.

Hehe, that's why you're bleeding your resources :) You're making your suicidal boats - fancy.

Doesn't going to work. Especially - why you need engine armor? You're already dead when aliens come close. And using so many side armor is ... Well, not optimal to do with early techs.

Originally posted by Vigor:

Other missles are so much slower than rattlers, being forced to fire them simultaneously makes overwhelming the enemy less effective.

Then why using them? Vipers are more then enough to kill anything.

Because that's not how missiles are used :) You need to rush to enemy, release them all to make as much packed as you could - then turn around and try to escape. Or endure through it if escape is impossible. Or running away at start if enemy have way more missiles then you (but much less ships).

Originally posted by Vigor:

Then I intended to put 3, 1 larger (1 slot) particle weapons on frigates and put 1 frigate with each fleet.

Forget about it. Without proper engines (at least Advanced Pulsars or god-save-us Nova liquid rockets) beam weapons are not even in grade "suicidal" but they will be "a sacrificial lambs".

Do you realise that particle beams have even LESS efficient range then lasers?

Originally posted by Vigor:

Burner is way better than any other drive I have seen but it still appears to be prone to running out of fuel and costing a lot of water which I don't have in abundance.

This is a warning from the game - you're overstressing your engines A LOT. With your techs - you're not going to have both a lot of armor and anything but point-blank 5...10k dV range.

[nephilimnexus]

Originally posted by Pepzi:

Even if I had maxed out my mission control with ships I'd have at most 30-50 ships.

Option A: (Fair) Bases and orbitals around Mercury can become dumping grounds for spamming lots & lots of Command Centers to boost your MC far past the limits of Earth itself. This can weigh heavily against your noble metals income, however, so make sure your mines can bear the weight.

Option B: (Cheat) TerraInvicta_Data/StreamingAssets/Templates/TIHabModuleTemplate.json
Notepad++
Line4801

"missionControl": 2,

change to

"missionControl": 200,

and
Line
3415

"missionControl": 1,

change to

"missionControl": 100,

This will make those two MC boosting modules x100 as effective as before. If such blatant cheating isn't your style then can adjust those numbers to something that you feel is more fair. Most players already agree that the base values of 1 and 2 are decidedly unfair against the player and have no qualms about increasing it just a little bit. Personally I use +3 and +6 myself, which seems more balanced for the sheer amount of crew and resources these things hog.

[corisai]

Originally posted by nephilimnexus:

Option A:
Option B:

Option C: If EU is not unified already - get control of France and slowly pick countries of EU. Before integrating them into EU - invest like a crazy into MC. Then you can have 100-200 MC from Earth alone.

[Vigor]

Originally posted by corisai:

Originally posted by gimmethegepgun:

Depends on armor and armament. If they have capable medium-long range weapons and good armor they can probably just Great Wall to victory.

With Grid engine? Good armor? O_O

Aside from recent changes to interception, Grid:
a) don't allow to use missiles efficienty (you can't boost their speed & pack them via acceleration).
b) don't allow to use beam weapons efficiently (you are not going to rush to enemies without eating all their ammo first)
c) not very efficient even with kinetics as you're going to eat all enemy missiles (can't rush to sides to reduce their danger)

That's why I never consider ion-grid ships to be combat capable. Their only use is for suicide boats and they're useless past few first alien ships.

Ion has always let me carry sufficient armor in the past and Grid can carry a lot more without breaking the bank in fuel consumption. Grid can carry a lot more than I am putting on it. I have been armoring a little more lightly than in previous games because I have fewer resources. I think if I tried to put as much armor on burner as I am currently putting on Grid I would spend more resources in fuel than I spend on the whole Grid ship. But to make matters carrying more armor means more weight and therefore more consumption of the one resource I really lack.

I will do a test when I load up the game but Burner doesn't seem capable of carrying the amount of armor I am currently putting on Grid without incurring a very high cost in water. But even the weight of its fuel costs it more fuel.

I think there are multiple reasons why I have fewer resources.
1. Upkeep seems to be much more costly
2. Mining orgs give a smaller percentage increase
3. Credit earning has been massively nerfed so that I need nanofactories which consume a lot of resources.
4. I really need hydro farms now which I never felt I needed before. That occupies base space causing my bases to be a little less productive in a variety of areas.
5. The AI since the update did a much better job of getting to mars before I could take it all
6. The AI also got most of the best asteroids before me. On about 5 occasions I sent a ship to a good asteroid which first built a station which I would then use to place the outpost. The AI would launch an outpost from earth right after my ship got there. Sometimes I wouldn't even get the station up before they would grab the site out from under me. I wanted to build the station first so my ship could refuel and be ready to go to the next good asteroid I found.
7. The control point cap is much more restrictive so I have been using fewer mining orgs to compensate. This compensation has also made my counselors more vulnerable as I need Persuasion/Command/Administration so badly I have neglected Espionage/Security.
8. I never before needed water so much as I do now. If I had known I would be short on water I could have placed water in a higher priority when I was settling asteroids. I don't have the MC/Hate meter cap to spend on more, difficult to defend, asteroids. I'm not entirely sure any asteroids are worth settling considering how costly it is to defend them.

[corisai]

Originally posted by Vigor:

Ion has always let me carry sufficient armor in the past

And that was hit by a devs nerf-hammer several times too :)

And if you missed entirely what'd written - armor is not a critical issue. Your weapons are. Your current design is crippled by your choice of drive (Grid) and extreme amounts of armor AND dV for current level of tech.

P.S. And yes, mining orgs get hit by a nerf-hammer too. They were broken OP.

Originally posted by Vigor:

On about 5 occasions I sent a ship to a good asteroid which first built a station which I would then use to place the outpost. The AI would launch an outpost from earth right after my ship got there.

Newbie mistake :)

You're either sending a ship with scouting module INSTEAD of probe (obviously it should be waaay faster then probe!) and use it to build colony later OR sending a colony core via boost to pick a mining spot before other factions.

[corisai]

Originally posted by Vigor:

4. I really need hydro farms now which I never felt I needed before. That occupies base space causing my bases to be a little less productive in a variety of areas.

O_O
How it could be? Farms are producing air & volatiles out of thin air - they ARE one of most productive modules in the game...