720cm Ultra V. Phaser Cannon Vs 720cm Infra Phase Cannon

[tigersclaw11]

So brains trust I'm having trouble splitting the difference between these two weapons:
The Infrared look better on paper but when you mounting the Ultra V on the same ship hull you get a fleet combat power score of +78 over the infra.

720 Ultra Phase Cannon ............720cm Infra Phase Cannon
W: 555t.............................................350t
Dmg: 15............................................15
100: 4%............................................6%
200: 16%........................................24%
500: 101%......................................148%
Drain: 1GJ.........................................0.67GJ
Cool.D 10sec..................................10sec
+78

So the infra is lighters has slightly higher if not similar damage in my testing and does not require exotics. And used less battery per shot, Yet as i stated the game scores the ultra as more combat effective. What am i missing??

[ulzgoroth]

cswiger の投稿を引用：

ulzgoroth の投稿を引用：

That it exists under CoaDE design rules is indeed not a point in question.

However, CoaDE is not the subject here, so it's definitely in question whether that point has any bearing.

You can either dispute the point or decline to dispute the point.

Which point? I don't dispute that you can build it in CoaDE. There's a cluster of related other points you seem to be wanting that to imply that I do call into question:
-Is it a realistic construct?
-Would it be effective in space combat?
-Should similar weapons be present in Terra Invicta?

In particular, I don't think 3kg space missiles are realistic at CoaDE tech levels simply from a control and sensor perspective (though maybe higher TI tech levels would enable it), I'm dubious of but not firmly set against the claim that that their on-target effects would be good, I think the overhead of handling and launching huge numbers of small missiles would be high, and I don't think TI should add Flea missiles.

You can either actually specify what you're arguing for and then argue for it, or decline to do so, I guess.

cswiger の投稿を引用：

So...if you actually wanted? Video might do it.

"might"? What you've said here is that you're going to claim that anyone who wants to prove you wrong is going to lie, and that even providing video isn't enough.

I don't mind proving my points-- just as I did above showing alien ships with high acceleration. But it is a waste of time if no reasonable level of proof is going to suffice.

I don't believe a battle video is a reasonable level of proof to ask for. I do not, indeed, ask for it. I also don't offer it.

But it is the only evidence you could provide that I would actually see as evidence.

(Alien ships with high acceleration don't prove any point except that there are alien ships with high acceleration. Which wasn't actually contested.)

Or if you could specify a reproducible skirmish battle that would demonstrate that missiles can't hit?

cswiger の投稿を引用：

I think I literally don't have a single missile-armed ship in my game at this point, so even if that was a thing I claimed (it's not) and I was interested in trying to prove it, it's not on the table.

And here we are with you refusing to provide any proof of your own claims.

Please provide proof of how many weapon hits you landed in your first-ever TI space battle.

You don't have it? Huh. Who would have thought.

Nobody has evidentiary records of everything. (Not even a streamer who actually has never played the game without recording it, because some things will have happened outside the field of view.)

cswiger の投稿を引用：

Unlike you, I don't demand that you meet an impossible burden of proof, but offering nothing at all is unconvincing. Well, I didn't believe you could show that over half of your missiles actually hit a target, and you have proven my assessment correct.

It's really impressive how you managed to figure out I can't prove something that I never claimed and specifically said I wasn't claiming. I'll go so far as to claim that I don't believe that half of my missiles actually hit a target.

Which, of course, isn't a problem. If 1/6th of missiles actually hit a target, that would be great. Lower fractions are viable. Not that fraction hitting is really a sensible metric, since getting through point defense is mostly not a matter of probabilities in TI.

[cswiger]

ulzgoroth の投稿を引用：

cswiger の投稿を引用：

You can either dispute the point or decline to dispute the point.

Which point? I don't dispute that you can build it in CoaDE. There's a cluster of related other points you seem to be wanting that to imply that I do call into question:
-Is it a realistic construct?

CoaDE claims to be "the most scientifically accurate space warfare simulator ever made", but you are welcome to identify another game or simulation which is superior.

If you fail to do so, you acknowledge CoaDE is the most realistic thing currently available.

-Would it be effective in space combat?

You can test it yourself against every stock ship or your own ships, just as others have done. I suspect you'll refuse to test anything which might contradict your opinions.

-Should similar weapons be present in Terra Invicta?

I think TI should have far more capable light missiles suitable for anti-torpedo / anti-fighter / anti-drone roles.

I also think TI should have heavier anti-ship missiles which can reliably catch 4 gee alien ships, which means they need to have at least 6 - 8 gee of accel. Unfortunately, there is only one missile in TI which meets that criterion and it does minimal damage.

You can either actually specify what you're arguing for and then argue for it, or decline to do so, I guess.

I already have.

The problem lies with you, as you've stated that no level of proof will suffice.

cswiger の投稿を引用：

"might"? What you've said here is that you're going to claim that anyone who wants to prove you wrong is going to lie, and that even providing video isn't enough.

I don't mind proving my points-- just as I did above showing alien ships with high acceleration. But it is a waste of time if no reasonable level of proof is going to suffice.

I don't believe a battle video is a reasonable level of proof to ask for. I do not, indeed, ask for it. I also don't offer it.

Thanks for confirming my analysis of your position.

(Alien ships with high acceleration don't prove any point except that there are alien ships with high acceleration. Which wasn't actually contested.)

Wrong. In post #33 you claimed: "Have you looked at the combat acceleration of actual alien ships? Big spoiler: it isn't pegged at 4g. Not even close, not even for smaller ships."

I showed three examples of actual alien ships with 4 g-- or close to 4 g-- acceleration.

cswiger の投稿を引用：

And here we are with you refusing to provide any proof of your own claims.

Please provide proof of how many weapon hits you landed in your first-ever TI space battle.

You acknowledge that you aren't going to provide proof of your own claims, and when you are called on it, you make unreasonable demands.

You don't have it? Huh. Who would have thought.

You've already stated that you aren't willing to live up to your own demands.

Unlike you, I am not a hypocrite and am willing both to meet a reasonable burden of proof and to accept claims made by others who offer that same reasonable level of proof.

[ulzgoroth]

cswiger の投稿を引用：

ulzgoroth の投稿を引用：

Which point? I don't dispute that you can build it in CoaDE. There's a cluster of related other points you seem to be wanting that to imply that I do call into question:
-Is it a realistic construct?

CoaDE claims to be "the most scientifically accurate space warfare simulator ever made", but you are welcome to identify another game or simulation which is superior.

If you fail to do so, you acknowledge CoaDE is the most realistic thing currently available.

-Would it be effective in space combat?

You can test it yourself against every stock ship or your own ships, just as others have done. I suspect you'll refuse to test anything which might contradict your opinions.

This is profoundly stupid. I don't know whether CoaDE is the most realistic space warfare simulator currently available, though it certainly is the most realistic such I could name with any confidence. That doesn't imply that it is that 'it works in CoaDE' is a strong claim of realism. (It doesn't help that you're dealing with something that is highly dependent on one of CoaDE's numerous omissions: sensors and communications are left out of the game entirely.)

cswiger の投稿を引用：

(Alien ships with high acceleration don't prove any point except that there are alien ships with high acceleration. Which wasn't actually contested.)

Wrong. In post #33 you claimed: "Have you looked at the combat acceleration of actual alien ships? Big spoiler: it isn't pegged at 4g. Not even close, not even for smaller ships."

I showed three examples of actual alien ships with 4 g-- or close to 4 g-- acceleration.

You did! You showed that some alien ships have high enough accelerations that they can out-accelerate most missiles. It's an interesting observation. It doesn't change that many alien ships, including smaller ships, don't have that acceleration, which is what I said.
If you wanted your point to be 'there exist alien ships that are hard to hit with missiles', well, we wouldn't be this deep in an argument about it.

cswiger の投稿を引用：

Please provide proof of how many weapon hits you landed in your first-ever TI space battle.

You acknowledge that you aren't going to provide proof of your own claims, and when you are called on it, you make unreasonable demands.

I rhetorically point out that your allegedly reasonable demands are anything but. Of course you don't have that. And of course I don't have proof of the several battles where I killed alien ships with my Keelback monitors. Because why would I? I didn't fight those battles for you, I fought them because I was playing the game.

And yet they still happened. And then you claimed that they could not happen because missiles can't hit.

[gimmethegepgun]

cswiger の投稿を引用：

gimmethegepgun の投稿を引用：

How to show it: go attack an alien ship with a Glittering Jewel launcher on it, without putting hundreds of points of armor on your ship. Watch your ship die in one hit. That's what happens when a missile that actually deals damage hits a ship.

I've never seen a ship die from a single missile hit, with the possible exception of a Hades nuclear torpedo explosion. It seems to take more like ten hits from alien missiles to kill a ship with ~20 armor, but that wasn't actually the topic, now was it?

Show me a situation where over half of your missiles or torps land hits. Or don't.

That is not, in fact, the topic. The topic you asked me to prove is that a ship dies or is crippled by a single hit from a good missile. Which you can easily do by building a naked ship with a tiny gun and telling it to go attack an alien ship that has a missile launcher.

[cswiger]

ulzgoroth の投稿を引用：

This is profoundly stupid. I don't know whether CoaDE is the most realistic space warfare simulator currently available, though it certainly is the most realistic such I could name with any confidence.

Thank you for acknowledging that CoaDE is the most realistic example available for testing space weapons like lasers, railguns, coilguns, and missiles.

That doesn't imply that it is that 'it works in CoaDE' is a strong claim of realism.

#1: You haven't named a more plausible system for testing modules.

#2: Terra Invicta is a game. It's allowed to have things which do not pass a "strong claim of realism.", especially if the change results in better gameplay.

(It doesn't help that you're dealing with something that is highly dependent on one of CoaDE's numerous omissions: sensors and communications are left out of the game entirely.)

What makes you think that real missiles with guidance can't fit into a 3kg mass?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAVAIR_Spike

cswiger の投稿を引用：

Wrong. In post #33 you claimed: "Have you looked at the combat acceleration of actual alien ships? Big spoiler: it isn't pegged at 4g. Not even close, not even for smaller ships."
I showed three examples of actual alien ships with 4 g-- or close to 4 g-- acceleration.

You did! You showed that some alien ships have high enough accelerations that they can out-accelerate most missiles. It's an interesting observation. It doesn't change that many alien ships, including smaller ships, don't have that acceleration, which is what I said.

No, what you claimed was that I failed to examine the combat accel of actual alien ships, and that was obviously mistaken.

You then claimed the accel limit was not pegged at 4g, when it is in fact limited to 4g per the ship designer. Again, obviously wrong.

If you wanted your point to be 'there exist alien ships that are hard to hit with missiles', well, we wouldn't be this deep in an argument about it.

You replied to me originally, and not vice-versa.

But you lack the conviction to prove your claims....

[cswiger]

gimmethegepgun の投稿を引用：

That is not, in fact, the topic. The topic you asked me to prove is that a ship dies or is crippled by a single hit from a good missile.

My original claim in #29 was "Sort by acceleration and note which missiles are faster than the 4 gee limit on ships. Most of them are slower and cannot reliably catch up to alien ships." People who disagree with this claim need to show it is wrong by showing that "most" missiles actually hit alien ships rather than miss. So I disputed the first part of your #39.

I am willing to review your evidence on the second part of post #39 about a single missile hit resulting in "the ship is crippled or destroyed". I've never seen an alien ship be crippled or destroyed by a single missile hit, although I have seen that happen with a nuke torpedo.

Which you can easily do by building a naked ship with a tiny gun and telling it to go attack an alien ship that has a missile launcher.

You have the burden of proof, not I.

And your concern about me designing ships is misplaced, because I want to see an alien ship be "crippled or destroyed" by a single missile hit. Unarmored player ships are not relevant.

[gimmethegepgun]

cswiger の投稿を引用：

You then claimed the accel limit was not pegged at 4g

No, what he said was:

ulzgoroth の投稿を引用：

Have you looked at the combat acceleration of actual alien ships? Big spoiler: it isn't pegged at 4g. Not even close, not even for smaller ships. Some of those (the ones with the exotics-free fusion lantern instead of the fusion torch) putter around with quite poor thrust.

Meaning, they aren't all 4gs. Not that their acceleration cap isn't 4gs.

What makes you think that real missiles with guidance can't fit into a 3kg mass?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAVAIR_Spike

Yes, I'm sure this 2-mile maximum range missile can track a target at 1000km.

cswiger の投稿を引用：

My original claim in #29 was "Sort by acceleration and note which missiles are faster than the 4 gee limit on ships. Most of them are slower and cannot reliably catch up to alien ships." People who disagree with this claim need to show it is wrong by showing that "most" missiles actually hit alien ships rather than miss.

"Most" is not the correct standard. "Enough" is. And "enough", as can be readily seen with a strong missile launcher, is often enough just one.

Which you can easily do by building a naked ship with a tiny gun and telling it to go attack an alien ship that has a missile launcher.

You have the burden of proof, not I.

I've given you the incredibly easy to duplicate experiment. Do it yourself.

And your concern about me designing ships is misplaced, because I want to see an alien ship be "crippled or destroyed" by a single missile hit. Unarmored player ships are not relevant.

The amount of armor the aliens currently use on their ships is all but unarmored against stronger missiles. Who cares if they have 15 armor or whatever when the missile does over 100 damage? Alien ships have between 6 and 96 integrity. I don't know if that's overall or per-section, but assuming it's per-section, an Athena Torpedo will destroy a section in any ship at those armor levels and most will be completely destroyed.

[Mistfox]

cswiger の投稿を引用：

gimmethegepgun の投稿を引用：

That is not, in fact, the topic. The topic you asked me to prove is that a ship dies or is crippled by a single hit from a good missile.

My original claim in #29 was "Sort by acceleration and note which missiles are faster than the 4 gee limit on ships. Most of them are slower and cannot reliably catch up to alien ships." People who disagree with this claim need to show it is wrong by showing that "most" missiles actually hit alien ships rather than miss. So I disputed the first part of your #39.

I am willing to review your evidence on the second part of post #39 about a single missile hit resulting in "the ship is crippled or destroyed". I've never seen an alien ship be crippled or destroyed by a single missile hit, although I have seen that happen with a nuke torpedo.

Which you can easily do by building a naked ship with a tiny gun and telling it to go attack an alien ship that has a missile launcher.

You have the burden of proof, not I.

And your concern about me designing ships is misplaced, because I want to see an alien ship be "crippled or destroyed" by a single missile hit. Unarmored player ships are not relevant.

Actually, acceleration isn't really acceleration here, you'll notice that the missiles are flying at a constant speed and don't decelerate to chase the enemy if they overshoot. In fact, designing a missile for space is a totally different scenario than designing one for terrestrial use. The missiles frankly all act like their air controlled cousins and fly at a constant speed and curve to follow the enemy. That being said, just because missiles have a lower "acceleration" than the enemy does not mean they are useless because of 2 factors. 1- the enemy tends to fly towards you to engage, which means his own acceleration is helping your weapon close the range towards him, at least at the initial stages of the battle and 2- you are "cutting the cord" on any closing engagements which means that you actually have less distance to cover than the enemy to get to a point where Object A (Alien) meets Object B (flying tube with explosives).

Not to mention one other very important factor. The enemy is not actually evading, it's just maneuvering in weird directions. As for missile damage, it's kind of hard to get single hits on ships these days with the new "flush all tubes" mechanic but one important factor to consider is also WHAT type of missile hit. If it was those 50 damage missiles, most likely you won't get a kill but there are also the 150 damage missiles, those that used to fire in pairs. Those are likely to get one hit kills. So the stat of the missile also factors in heavily to the equation.

[gimmethegepgun]

Mistfox の投稿を引用：

Actually, acceleration isn't really acceleration here, you'll notice that the missiles are flying at a constant speed and don't decelerate to chase the enemy if they overshoot.

You sure that isn't just because they don't have the dV to catch their target any more?

[Mistfox]

gimmethegepgun の投稿を引用：

Mistfox の投稿を引用：

Actually, acceleration isn't really acceleration here, you'll notice that the missiles are flying at a constant speed and don't decelerate to chase the enemy if they overshoot.

You sure that isn't just because they don't have the dV to catch their target any more?

Yes, they curve in flight rather than flip end to end and decelerate, so even a miss would cause it to fly in a large curve. A real space "craft", which a missile arguably is, would just cut acceleration, flip end over end and ignite its engines again or if it was coasting like the missiles in TI, it would just flip over and activate its main thrusters again. The fact that it flies in a curve is already air breathing physics.

[gimmethegepgun]

Mistfox の投稿を引用：

Yes, they curve in flight rather than flip end to end and decelerate

That might just be them being stupid and accelerating directly at the current position of the enemy, and then not doing that any more when it can't achieve a trajectory that will hit the target.

The fact that it flies in a curve is already air breathing physics.

It's always going to be curvy, except for acceleration directly opposed to relative movement. Acceleration is second-order, it's in its nature to cause curvy movement.
Improperly using air physics means using improperly-shallow turns that in-atmosphere would limit turbulence, not curvy movement.

[Mistfox]

gimmethegepgun の投稿を引用：

It's always going to be curvy, except for acceleration directly opposed to relative movement.

This is the part where close misses serve as a demonstration. The enemy is almost directly opposite to relative motion yet the missile still tries to circle around.

*shrug* I take it as them doing it to be used friendly, normal human brains get stabby painful when they have to handle real life microgravity movement. The complaints section would explode! lol. Same as the "constant speed" missiles since a missile under constant acceleration would simply streak across the screen after a build up time.

[DuX1112]

tigersclaw11 の投稿を引用：

wait!!!! I See my mistake I Have it back all back the front! HAHAHA! ignore my post I thought that it was Damage effectiveness not armour effectiveness.

So the game just threw those numbers with zero information about what they refer to?

[gimmethegepgun]

DuX1112 の投稿を引用：

tigersclaw11 の投稿を引用：

wait!!!! I See my mistake I Have it back all back the front! HAHAHA! ignore my post I thought that it was Damage effectiveness not armour effectiveness.

So the game just threw those numbers with zero information about what they refer to?

It calls it "Armor Effectiveness at x km". While that's certainly not the most detailed description, and leaves some questions to be answered, it makes it clear that the percentage is how good the armor is against the weapon.

[ulzgoroth]

cswiger の投稿を引用：

That doesn't imply that it is that 'it works in CoaDE' is a strong claim of realism.

#1: You haven't named a more plausible system for testing modules.

#2: Terra Invicta is a game. It's allowed to have things which do not pass a "strong claim of realism.", especially if the change results in better gameplay.

Much bad faith, wow?

You were using CoaDE as a basis to argue that Terra Invicta should have Flea-like missiles. I am disputing that argument. Not whether the Terra Invicta devs are permitted to put anything in the game, which is a topic you just made up.

cswiger の投稿を引用：

You did! You showed that some alien ships have high enough accelerations that they can out-accelerate most missiles. It's an interesting observation. It doesn't change that many alien ships, including smaller ships, don't have that acceleration, which is what I said.

No, what you claimed was that I failed to examine the combat accel of actual alien ships, and that was obviously mistaken.

You were considerate enough to quote my exact words so I don't need to. You can look at your own post to see that this isn't true.

What I did say was that if you looked at alien ships, you'd see something.

Which even your cherrypicked examples actually supported despite them having way more performance than most (possibly any) ships I've examined in my own game. Most of them didn't have 4g acceleration. (They did have more acceleration than most if not all alien ships I've ever examined in my game, though.)

cswiger の投稿を引用：

You then claimed the accel limit was not pegged at 4g, when it is in fact limited to 4g per the ship designer. Again, obviously wrong.

Yes, I definitely believe that you misunderstood my post that way after you've made so many posts engaging it as something less of an obvious strawman.