Why is there so much useless/obsolete tech in the tree?

[Sarno]

What's the point of it? To just waste research points in the early game?
Nearly all of the starting tech up to particle drive, adamantane armor and such are absolute garbage to the point where the ship containing them won't even be able to leave the orbit or basically do something meaningful.
What's worse, if you go ahead and research them (in case they are prerequisites to some better tech) you then end up with this bulls**t in your ship design screen and good luck trying to find which component is which without having to hover over them every bloody time you decide to design a new ship class.
https://i.imgur.com/g6Fbptd.png

[Lovecraft]

We can see the drive stats before we choose to research them. Of course I don't understand what all the stats mean, but I'm learning.

The one thing the game really needs is an option to hide projects. My list is full of projects I don't want to research.

[Mistfox]

Originally posted by corisai:

Originally posted by jfoytek:

every drive has an upside and a down side....
Sometimes the downside that people seem to miss is the extreme power requirement from the reactor, leaving them with no power for weapons...

LOL.

Tell me - what purpose of most drives behind Gas Core tech (as you already have Molten Core and fission spinner/Pegasus)?

It is for those games where everything goes to ♥♥♥♥ and you're out of water sites. At least with the alternatives, you are not in a Catch-22 fail state. Out of water specifically without alternate drives IS a fail state in this game without the different engines you know? "I can't take over that hab producing water because I don't have a ship!" "Then build one!" "I can't, no water!". So you see, it loops around.

[corisai]

Originally posted by Mistfox:

It is for those games where everything goes to ♥♥♥♥ and you're out of water sites.

Except you will never have enough fissiles to use such "alternative" drives :)

[Mistfox]

Originally posted by corisai:

Originally posted by Mistfox:

It is for those games where everything goes to ♥♥♥♥ and you're out of water sites.

Except you will never have enough fissiles to use such "alternative" drives :)

It's not just fissiles, it's also the drives that use metal as propellant or volatiles.

[corisai]

Originally posted by Mistfox:

It's not just fissiles, it's also the drives that use metal as propellant or volatiles.

Sigh.

1) Vortex Drive. Using water. Somewhat less efficient even then advanced pulsar, completely worse then fission spinner. On top of it - horrible efficiency.
2) Super Vortex Drive. Still trash compared with Fission Spinner.
3) Cavity Drive. Trash, using water. Did I mentioned that it's worse then Vortex behind same tech?
4) Quartz Drive. Using water, even more trash then Cavity...
5) Lightbulb Drive. Using water, somewhat less efficient even then advanced pulsar, completely worse then fission spinner.
6) Fission Frag Drive. Yean, 10 units of fissiles per tank and being only a bit better long-range engine then Grid Drive O_O. Do you ever have tons of fissiles and no water? I never was so lucky - so trash.
7) Burner Drive. Now things finally get interesting - weak for combat, but allow to make long-range ship with not abysmal acceleration & using mixed fuel (0.1 precious, 0.1 fissiles, 9.8 water).

So - what purpose of #1-#6 if you already know Molten Core tech (prerequisite for Gas Core) and most techs for Fission Spinner / Pegasus?

[Mistfox]

Originally posted by corisai:

........

Your big problem is that you are taking conditions that are present in a good game. Not all games can be good, you also have to plan for the bad, like having to use a metals based engine, which you seem to have missed out the stats for.

[corisai]

Originally posted by Mistfox:

Your big problem is that you are taking conditions that are present in a good game. Not all games can be good, you also have to plan for the bad, like having to use a metals based engine, which you seem to have missed out the stats for.

Stop evading my question. I'm already listed most drives behind Gas Core tech - nobody of them using metals.

[Mistfox]

Originally posted by corisai:

Originally posted by Mistfox:

Your big problem is that you are taking conditions that are present in a good game. Not all games can be good, you also have to plan for the bad, like having to use a metals based engine, which you seem to have missed out the stats for.

Stop evading my question. I'm already listed most drives behind Gas Core tech - nobody of them using metals.

What are you so fixated on one specific tech when the question is about the variety of all the drives in the game? In case you forgot the question, it is "why are there so many useless/obsolete tech in the game", the answer in this case is "so that players can avoid fail states where they can't get enough X (in your example, X= water) and end up stuck. An alternative material engine can at least get them to a mine that produces water for the player to invade and continue the game.

[corisai]

Originally posted by Mistfox:

What are you so fixated on one specific tech when the question is about the variety of all the drives in the game?

As this tech is an ideal example of broken balance:
a) most of engines behind next tier of tech are worse then previous (and it's common issue).
b) few of them are unlocking next "tier" of engines - but results are still inferior to Molten Core ones (Vortex Drive -> Super Vortex Drive; Quartz -> Lightbulb; Cavity -> Advanced Cavity). So they're pure trap for a newbie (you don't see stats of next engine in line) - most of them are dead ends and only one will lead to top-tier Gas Core engine.

Such situation is common in game now, just not for evert engine tech is so extreme :)

Originally posted by Mistfox:

In case you forgot the question, it is "why are there so many useless/obsolete tech in the game", the answer in this case is "so that players can avoid fail states where they can't get enough X (in your example, X= water) and end up stuck.

I already posted 5 engines that exist for nothing but trapping new player...

UPD. 6th useless gas core engines - proc Pharos, saw it's stats

[ulzgoroth]

Okay, I've now got access to the fission spinner project, and I'd like to know why you think that thing is interesting at all.

Sure, it's horrendously powerful. I guess if you want a cislunar dreadnought that flies like an F-22 it'll do that.

But it has lower exhaust velocity than the advanced pulsar. Still. So I can't really see using it.

[Mistfox]

Originally posted by corisai:

........................

Well if you can't get it, you can't get it. I'll just put this here for those that can. The extra engines are there to prevent fail states in the game where you can't go into space because you lack a specific material.

[ulzgoroth]

Originally posted by Mistfox:

Originally posted by corisai:

........................

Well if you can't get it, you can't get it. I'll just put this here for those that can. The extra engines are there to prevent fail states in the game where you can't go into space because you lack a specific material.

But most of them aren't, because only a tiny handful of the extra engines are not water engines.

(And I'm not sure what circumstances you're imagining where lack of water makes those engines useful. The set of things they can do is pretty tiny, and you can boost water if you need it.)

[jfoytek]

Originally posted by corisai:

Originally posted by Mistfox:

Your big problem is that you are taking conditions that are present in a good game. Not all games can be good, you also have to plan for the bad, like having to use a metals based engine, which you seem to have missed out the stats for.

Stop evading my question. I'm already listed most drives behind Gas Core tech - nobody of them using metals.

Mass Driver, Hall Drive, Plasma Wave all use Metal....

Colloid used Volitile...

are they great drives nah but neither are most of the drives you named the difference here is as your seemingly not willing to see or purposely ignoring is that someone could have an economy where they are water short or out of water and they need to get somewhere to get water... Or maybe they just have a huge supply of Volatiles more then water and deem it a better resource to spend on drive tech....

Every game is different... People will unlock things at a different rate... They may need to send a long range construction ship to found a base somewhere at a very different time then you and their options might be very different then you....

[corisai]

Originally posted by ulzgoroth:

Okay, I've now got access to the fission spinner project, and I'd like to know why you think that thing is interesting at all.

Sure, it's horrendously powerful. I guess if you want a cislunar dreadnought that flies like an F-22 it'll do that.

But it has lower exhaust velocity than the advanced pulsar. Still. So I can't really see using it.

1) Combat acceleration is all that matter in fission era (as you're mostly unable to strike alien bases with them with a few quite gamey design options based on advanced fission tech).
2) It exhaust velocity is not that bad, you can keep 12-16k dV with it.
3) It a requirement for Pegasus (and you could upgrade Fission Spinners to Pegasus later) - and that this is definitely good engine, I'm doing my first proper battleships with it and they're feeling fine.

Originally posted by Mistfox:

Well if you can't get it, you can't get it. I'll just put this here for those that can. The extra engines are there to prevent fail states in the game where you can't go into space because you lack a specific material.

Sigh.
Vortex Drive, Super Vortex Drive, Cavity Drive, Lightbulb Drive and Pharos Drive - are using water and worse then mid-tier of previous tech (Fission Spiner) not even mention top-tier Molter Core - Pegasus.

So please tell me - how they could save my water while they're using it?

Or how game will refund my RP wasted into them in a hope that inferior engine will unlock better one like it's promising?

[jfoytek]

Originally posted by corisai:

Originally posted by ulzgoroth:

Okay, I've now got access to the fission spinner project, and I'd like to know why you think that thing is interesting at all.

Sure, it's horrendously powerful. I guess if you want a cislunar dreadnought that flies like an F-22 it'll do that.

But it has lower exhaust velocity than the advanced pulsar. Still. So I can't really see using it.

1) Combat acceleration is all that matter in fission era (as you're mostly unable to strike alien bases with them with a few quite gamey design options based on advanced fission tech).
2) It exhaust velocity is not that bad.
3) It a requirement for Pegasus (and you could upgrade Fission Spinners to Pegasus later) - and that this is definitely good, I'm doing my first proper battleships with it and they're feeling fine.

Originally posted by Mistfox:

Well if you can't get it, you can't get it. I'll just put this here for those that can. The extra engines are there to prevent fail states in the game where you can't go into space because you lack a specific material.

Sigh.
Vortex Drive, Super Vortex Drive, Cavity Drive, Lightbulb Drive and Pharos Drive - are using water and worse then mid-tier of previous tech (Fission Spiner) not even mention top-tier Molter Core - Pegasus.

So please tell me - how they could save my water while they're using it?

Or how game will refund my RP wasted into them in a hope that inferior engine will unlock better one like it's promising?

If combat acceleration is all that matters then Apex a Volatile drive is going to be far better off plus it won't be using up your reactors power so all the reactor power can go to the guns....