Debtors get too much sympathy

[Sheeeeiiiitttt]

(Obvious spoilers btw) Now I'm not saying ♥♥♥♥ them and they don't deserve any, but the game treats them as if they're 100% victims and it pisses me off especially when the gang slaughters O'dricscolls (who as Kieran said are just like the gang even though they can't admit it), cops, and bounty hunters all the time.

But ooooh the dummies that went to a loan shark and then didn't pay their debts are the biggest victims. "Maybe you and your friends could do things differently, like not threaten a man". "You're right, Ma'am and maybe your husband could've done things differently, like not borrow money from a loan shark and then not pay his ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ debt."

I get it, it was a plot piece for Arthur's character. But part of me wishes there was a truly low honor option to just take more of their ♥♥♥♥ or something because of how self righteous they are about it.

[GhostyOsty]

The separation between the Debtors and Arthur is that, this is strictly Strauss's business. It's completely third party that the gang makes money off on. Particularly, yes you are definitely correct and we do see how cruel both sides can be. Arthur is harsh and inflicting during Chapter 2, Chapter 3, and Chapter 4's missions, although the majority of the Debtors are underlying stupid for taking that money.

Here's some of my thoughts on some of the Debtors.

- Chick Mathews obviously knew what he was doing and tried to run away with it.

- Mr. Wrobel is an actual victim of this situation, he didn't know what he was doing. He just came to America.

- Lilly Millet's husband is a gambler. This is confirmed by finding the abandoned letter wagon in the Cumberland forest. She should've not taken money. She knew about this and still took the money, stupidity.

- The Downe's family could've avoided Arthur's interactions at all costs, they seriously own a farm and cannot pay back a debt?

- Winton Holmes as a hunter thought a little big of himself to pay back a debt in a rare pelt, ended up being mauled by the white cougar. Bad decisions.

- Gwyn Hughes is just a criminal. There's no feeling bad or pity for a grave digger.

- Algie Davison is a drunk and delusional man. Tries to rob a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ gunslinger. Not a good idea buddy.

- Someone I actually feel bad for. J. John Weathers is an actual good person with a good heart that is trying to avoid authorities because he is in love with a Native American. An actual victim of this situation.

- Mrs. Londonderry is also another character that I feel pity for. Husband died in the mines because he had no choice. Judging by the small household, Strauss lend them a lot of money that they cannot pay back. An actual victim of this situation.

In conclusion, out of the 9 people you encounter, 3 of them are actual victims. The rest are just stupid and make bad decisions. Btw I'm really sorry how long this post is.

[IvantheFormidable]

Originally posted by Midward:

I get it, it was a plot piece for Arthur's character. But part of me wishes there was a truly low honor option to just take more of their ♥♥♥♥ or something because of how self righteous they are about it.

Generally speaking, people rarely borrow money from a loan shark if they have any other option. But part of the story is that Arthur stops seeing the value in money, which is a sharp contrast to what the gang's overall objective is. I suppose they could have added more low honor options to take stuff, but that honestly wouldn't fit with the narrative at that point, as what good is money to a dead man? (Who is likely already in possession of an absurd amount of money anyway, which is a whole other issue)

Originally posted by Midward:

when the gang slaughters O'dricscolls (who as Kieran said are just like the gang even though they can't admit it), cops, and bounty hunters all the time.

That's a big issue with most of Rockstar's titles, and is better ignored, imo, as being something included strictly for gameplay, as it rarely works well with any of their narratives. Hard to cut down on the amount of enemies without turning the game into a walking simulator, though, so I understand where they're coming from.

[3/4 MILE, CALL THE BALL]

Originally posted by Midward:

part of me wishes

Can't always get what you want -- Mick Jagger

[pike]

the debtors that were tricked into taking out predatory loans deserve MORE sympathy not less, their poor people preyed upon by a corrupt capitalist system designed to keep the common folk down ,
power to the people comrades !
END THE TYRANNY OF THE RICH FAT MONEY MISER PUNKS !
LONG LIVE mISS hARRIET !

[Inheritor]

chick matthews was incredibly irritating for me, so i shot his horse and knee capped him with a revolver

[Dutch Plan Der Linde]

Originally posted by 3/4 MILE, CALL THE BALL:

Originally posted by Midward:

part of me wishes

Can't always get what you want -- Mick Jagger

But if ya try soemtiiiiimes...

[Sheeeeiiiitttt]

Originally posted by GhostyOsty:

The separation between the Debtors and Arthur is that, this is strictly Strauss's business. It's completely third party that the gang makes money off on. Particularly, yes you are definitely correct and we do see how cruel both sides can be. Arthur is harsh and inflicting during Chapter 2, Chapter 3, and Chapter 4's missions, although the majority of the Debtors are underlying stupid for taking that money.

Here's some of my thoughts on some of the Debtors.

- Chick Mathews obviously knew what he was doing and tried to run away with it.

- Mr. Wrobel is an actual victim of this situation, he didn't know what he was doing. He just came to America.

- Lilly Millet's husband is a gambler. This is confirmed by finding the abandoned letter wagon in the Cumberland forest. She should've not taken money. She knew about this and still took the money, stupidity.

- The Downe's family could've avoided Arthur's interactions at all costs, they seriously own a farm and cannot pay back a debt?

- Winton Holmes as a hunter thought a little big of himself to pay back a debt in a rare pelt, ended up being mauled by the white cougar. Bad decisions.

- Gwyn Hughes is just a criminal. There's no feeling bad or pity for a grave digger.

- Algie Davison is a drunk and delusional man. Tries to rob a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ gunslinger. Not a good idea buddy.

- Someone I actually feel bad for. J. John Weathers is an actual good person with a good heart that is trying to avoid authorities because he is in love with a Native American. An actual victim of this situation.

- Mrs. Londonderry is also another character that I feel pity for. Husband died in the mines because he had no choice. Judging by the small household, Strauss lend them a lot of money that they cannot pay back. An actual victim of this situation.

In conclusion, out of the 9 people you encounter, 3 of them are actual victims. The rest are just stupid and make bad decisions. Btw I'm really sorry how long this post is.

Great post, pretty much how I feel as well. Worth noting that Downes has TB and probably knows he's dying and borrows money he probably knows he can't repay and screws over his family (leaving them w/ debt), while Arthur tries to give away money in the end knowing he won't need it. Downes probably was lying to Valentine w/ his charity and using that to repay his debts as well. What a great guy!

Like you said some definitely deserve more sympathy than others. Particularly the families. People can either be reasonable and look at the specifics like you did or just believe what makes them feel better which it seems most wanna do.

[Shaken_Widow]

it's capitalism.

supply and demand.

crooks beget crooks.

all debtors are essentially just as bad as strauss and vice versa, strauss is the supply which without would just be filled in by another shark, whilst the debtors are the demand which there will always be.

the end result of this kind of sympathy is simply insanity, because to expect a different outcome by not participating is to simply let the burden fall to someone else, which is literally doing the same thing as collecting the debt yourself if not worse because others would most likely kill those people.

it's a favor that was done out of pity, and it's still a form of pity to refuse it.

so same thing either way.

[every1hasnames]

im on the debtors side. simply because strauss is a loan shark that is a given fact shown by the game. and not enough information was given about the debtors for me to make a decision on whether they deserve pity or not. or there was enough information about the debtors that shows they were victims.


heres why.



(note i havent completed the game yet so if what im about to say is shown correct me pls)


ive never seen the agreement ,the loaning happen. the act of strauss and a npc conversing and agreeing about the loan. when it will be paid rates etc.


only the collecting.
sorry but i need more info on the loaning part before i make any decision on whether or not the people who borrowed money deserved pity or didnt. Some the game actually shows i would say they are victims.


ive seen enough about strauss to where yeah strauss deserved the hate. and author was participating in the loan sharking scheme.


btw right off the bat. loan shark.


theres a reason its illegal in most if not all 1st world countries. and is always part of organized crime. just saying. so seems to be in most 1st world countries.

[The "Woke" Fear Elon]

Originally posted by Shaken_Widow:

it's capitalism.

It's so obvious.
I've worked in China. No one in debt there. No crime. None.
I've worked in Russia. Same.

North Korea... haven't been but they're KNOWN for luxury.

When I ask residents in Communist nations "What's it like living here?"
Their reply "Can't complain".

Originally posted by Midward:

the game treats them as if they're 100% victims and it pisses me off

How do you feel when players do it as well?

[Shaken_Widow]

Originally posted by The "Woke" Fear Elon (^.^):

Originally posted by Shaken_Widow:

it's capitalism.

It's so obvious.
I've worked in China. No one in debt there. No crime. None.
I've worked in Russia. Same.

North Korea... haven't been but they're KNOWN for luxury.

When I ask residents in Communist nations "What's it like living here?"
Their reply "Can't complain".

lol yeah not saying capitalism was the problem at all, just pointing out that it's how criminals abuse capitalism, at least you're able to complain with capitalism whereas in russia if you complain, sledge to neck syndrome becomes a reality.

just the implications of criminality within capitalism, in any industry, political system, or whatever, criminality remains the same.

debtors are as much criminals as the loan sharks, because as much as you can sympathize with them, they would do the same thing to other gangs regardless and the outcome could most likely be worse, on top of the fact the debtors aren't actually supposed to be being lent any money to begin with because they have no credit, and no means to truly pay back a loan which is why they turn to gangs.

it's all illegal activity.

the majority of them are the kind that want to sell you a bridge so to speak, and the gangs give them money knowing this going in.

[T9]

Trash talk from people who weren't desperate enough yet. We will see