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Sharky

Jul 19, 2021 @ 6:48pm

Story not as good as people say?

I'm not trying to troll or anything, I'm not a movie guy who looks at all of the details/ read between the lines/ something has deeper meaning etc. My gripe is just that the story/ side missions force you into a, what the game says, morally good character but most of the game is spending time doing morally wrong things. An example is when Dutch kills an old woman on Guarma and Arthur does not like that, but the days prior he gunned down at least 50+ Lawmen, Pinkerton's, Grey's, Braithwaite's, Bronte's men, US soldiers (I understand that predominant members of those groups did bad things but I think we can agree that not all of them are bad or even forced into it like some of Dutch's gang.) Other things like stealing money/ jewelry/ horses other items of value, assaulting innocent people and so on. At the end of the game if you choose to help John its deemed a good act (I know some people are gonna say "But its Honour not morals" but burning down Braithwaite's house and killing an entire family because Dutch's stole from them is fine but robbing a store isn't honourable doesn't make a lot of sense.) a fellow murderer so there really isn't any redemption for him but it makes sense for John when he died since he did it all to keep Jack and Abigail safe by working with the government to catch his former fellow gang members. Also it makes even less sense when I am trying to be a horrible person by robbing all the time and killing random people but certain missions force me into doing good deeds that can easily be side stepped by being bad like helping the missionary/ monk if I could just throw him off the trail of the slaves in the store for cash from the guy who was hiding the slaves. Another point people might bring up is that it's honour to your gang not honour in general, but that does not make sense either since Arthur gets rid of Strauss even though he was helping the gang out, risked himself and Adler to be captured by police to save John that could have lead to them telling where Dutch is or the gang loosing 2 members because they could have gotten killed, can refuse to help Adler near the end, allowing Charles to get captured and the possibility of get interrogated or executed when they could have sneaked past the guards, actively tells fellow members to question what they are doing or to outright leave, can choose to leave John to get the money for himself. To me the story just seems to be at odds with itself most of the time, I am not saying the game is bad just I think the story itself is confusing. I think the story can work if you did not gun down so many people (story wise not game play wise) and Arthur talk about how he thinks hes been murdering so many people for Dutch and did not question it rather than just its getting dangerous for everyone in the gang because of Dutch's decisions.

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Originally posted by Emanouche:

I always looked at the story of RDR games as flawed men, raised to be murderous outlaws, struggle morally to survive in a world that has become more civilized and doesn't forget. You know the protagonists are bad and murderers, the game is not trying to hide that fact... but it also shows that they are human beings. The struggle of Arthur becoming old and facing his own mortality as he questions everything about the ways he did/does things and his upbringing to me was very impactful, why I find it to be one of the best game story I've ever played. That's why it's called Red Dead REDEMPTION. games about bad men trying to redeem themselves in a world that hates them. Leaving it with a few quotes from the original game: “I rode in a gang. We robbed trains, banks, held people ransom. We killed people we didn’t like. Bill Williamson was in that gang. If I don’t capture my former brother-in-arms, great harm will befall my family.” “Every man has a right to change, a chance of forgiveness.” and “People don’t forget. Nothing gets forgiven.”

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Showing 31-43 of 43 comments

Captain Crummy has Red Dead Redemption 2

Jul 20, 2021 @ 6:29pm

Originally posted by Sharky:
Originally posted by HilAroEye:
If you're saying that the story isn't as good as people say just because you can't get over the fact that Arthur thinks that Dutch has gone insane and he's killing in cold blood, then I'd say you haven't understood the story. Arthur has mentioned that when he was little and Dutch picked him up, he thought Arthur several things such as 'taking from the rich and giving to the poor' back then, it was just a trio of Dutch, Hosea and Arthur. He taught Arthur several more things including 'not killing people in cold blood', 'not robbing the poor'. And now Dutch is going against his own ideals and since that is what Arthur has learned in his childhood...he has a problem with Dutch strangling that 'poor', woman in 'cold blood'
But Arthur has killed innocent people in cold blood, you can strangle women, shoot people in the back of the head while they were minding their own business, in most towns you can rob from beggars, rob countless stores bringing attention to a murderer/ thief near the area of the gangs camp, you can do exactly what Arthur is criticizing Dutch for which to me makes zero sense. If it was the way you say it, it would make sense but with the way the game can be played it does not.

No thats players actions and not canon. You dont need to kill innocent folk on your travels, or rob stores for that matter, that's your choice as a gamer playing the game, thats not Arthurs cannonical choice in the gameworld.

Arthur isn't a saint either, his first words to Sadie Adler are even "We're bad men, but we're not them".

This line directly shows the conflict within Arthur. He knows he's a 'bad man', but he is not a monster. Dutch, Hosea and Arthur talk about their moral code many times, and it reflects on their decisions.

The plethora of people they kill, is more a situation of 'kill or be killed', a direct threat to the livelihood of the gang. The woman on Guarma was no threat, nor was she armed. The reason why Arthur gets upset at Dutch, is because for the first time in his life, his father figure broke the code, the same code Arthur was indoctrinated with from childhood.

No. The real narrative mystery of RDR2 is how Strauss is able to lend all these people muhney while Dutch keeps berating me for not putting enough in the ledger.

#31

Sharky

Jul 20, 2021 @ 6:36pm

Originally posted by ONSEmanouche:
855, yeah, I was half asleep when I wrote my answer last night. ROFL... seriously stop trolling though. :p

Sorry? I marked your response as the answer as it clears things up the most, I'm just asking questions not trolling.

#32

AlpacaDGY

Jul 20, 2021 @ 7:01pm

Originally posted by Sharky:
Originally posted by ONSEmanouche:
855, yeah, I was half asleep when I wrote my answer last night. ROFL... seriously stop trolling though. :p
Sorry? I marked your response as the answer as it clears things up the most, I'm just asking questions not trolling.

I think he was talking about other guy, not you. You question is sligthly perminent, but I think it would be better watch a 30 minutes video to undestand the lore and "cold blood killing" before asking here. It's just easier to listen someone talking then reading 1000 word of a random that can misinformate you.

#33

RageMojo

Jul 20, 2021 @ 7:33pm

Modern society is more polarized and views on right and wrong have contracted more and more to include things once considered just fine. So not only do you have to put yourself in the time period the story takes place, you have to compare context.

Arthur admits being bad in that they rob and steal, however:

Kidnapping a child? You are not a parent, if someone kidnapped my son i would not only kill everyone in my way to get to him, i would burn everything they own to the dirt John Wick style.

Killing lawmen? Those who have hunted you and killed your friends? If they wear the blue their individuality is irrelevant, they are the enemy. Sort of like how the government didnt give a crap about the different kinds of Native Americans.

Robbing was only to be done against those who can afford it, the rich and corporations. Mistakes happen and desperation grey's ethics, but over all they held to this standard and even to the point Arthur kicks the money lender to the curb, and never liking his schemes from the start because he is taking advantage of poorer people. People in a state of desperation.

These hardened people didnt have a lack of morals or deep hypocrisy, they admitted being thieves, they stewed on mistakes and bad jobs, it was just set to a different standard than someone living today.

Also, it is a game and it has to be fun above all else, concessions have to be made for each mediums hook. Movies need to be visual, books need to be fluid, and games need to be fun to play.

Last edited by RageMojo; Jul 20, 2021 @ 7:39pm

#34

Emanouche

Jul 21, 2021 @ 3:24am

Originally posted by AlpacaDGY:
Originally posted by Sharky:
Sorry? I marked your response as the answer as it clears things up the most, I'm just asking questions not trolling.

I think he was talking about other guy, not you. You question is sligthly perminent, but I think it would be better watch a 30 minutes video to undestand the lore and "cold blood killing" before asking here. It's just easier to listen someone talking then reading 1000 word of a random that can misinformate you.

Actually yeah, damn, I need to stop coming here half asleep. xD

Last edited by Emanouche; Jul 21, 2021 @ 3:29am

#35

Corey

Jul 21, 2021 @ 4:45am

Originally posted by Sharky:
Originally posted by HilAroEye:
Exactly, that's 'A' way the game can be played, if you're killing people and robbing people by your own wish outside of story missions, then that doesn't make the story of the game bad. if you're killing people outside of the mission in the back of the head while they're minding their own business, that doesn't make Arthur a cold blooded killer, that's just you man.
I just wished it forced you more into the way the story wants you to be to make it work then having choice, makes it very disconnected. Thank you very much for talking to me about this.

Why should it force you? then that would ruin it for plenty of other people who want to play it that way? The game can be played EXACTLY how you want it, but saying it's bad because it doesn't force you to, the fact it's as open as it is allows players to play it the way you dislike and also play it the way you like. The story is an absolutely stunning in almost every aspect, and your misguided opinion is honestly a little ridiculous. I avoid killing in any engagement I can, and de-escalate if at all possible. There is a reputation status in the game for this very reason, there are repercussions to killing like a maniac and there are plenty of reasons stopping people from slaughtering entire towns.

#36

Sharky

Jul 21, 2021 @ 1:51pm

Originally posted by Hefty:
Originally posted by Sharky:
I just wished it forced you more into the way the story wants you to be to make it work then having choice, makes it very disconnected. Thank you very much for talking to me about this.
Why should it force you? then that would ruin it for plenty of other people who want to play it that way? The game can be played EXACTLY how you want it, but saying it's bad because it doesn't force you to, the fact it's as open as it is allows players to play it the way you dislike and also play it the way you like. The story is an absolutely stunning in almost every aspect, and your misguided opinion is honestly a little ridiculous. I avoid killing in any engagement I can, and de-escalate if at all possible. There is a reputation status in the game for this very reason, there are repercussions to killing like a maniac and there are plenty of reasons stopping people from slaughtering entire towns.

Please read my full post, I did not say the game is bad just the story doesn't make a whole lot of sense with what you can do if free roam.

#37

blairweescot has Red Dead Redemption 2

Jul 21, 2021 @ 3:30pm

Basically you are convincing yourself you won't like the story. Fine. Go play some hockey. Problem solved.

#38

Sharky

Jul 21, 2021 @ 3:55pm

Originally posted by blairweescot:
Basically you are convincing yourself you won't like the story. Fine. Go play some hockey. Problem solved.

No, I'm just giving my reasons why I don't like it as much as the next guy. Simmer down and please read the full post next time.

#39

blairweescot has Red Dead Redemption 2

Jul 21, 2021 @ 5:27pm

Originally posted by Sharky:
Originally posted by blairweescot:
Basically you are convincing yourself you won't like the story. Fine. Go play some hockey. Problem solved.
No, I'm just giving my reasons why I don't like it as much as the next guy. Simmer down and please read the full post next time.

LOL what are you so excited over. Go find something you like instead of fighting the world over stupid nonsense.

#40

Sharky

Jul 21, 2021 @ 5:49pm

Originally posted by blairweescot:
Originally posted by Sharky:
No, I'm just giving my reasons why I don't like it as much as the next guy. Simmer down and please read the full post next time.

LOL what are you so excited over. Go find something you like instead of fighting the world over stupid nonsense.

Simmer down, its just the internet dude. maybe follow your own ideas like you commented and stop insulting people for having a different opinion than you.

#41