Why so much hate towards Micah?

[Lunduke is the Trump of tech]

Micah's my favorite character. Dunno why everyone's hating on him.

Is it just because he went on a murder rampage in Strawberry? Let's take a step back and think about this, because he was just acting in self defense. They were trying to kill him.

How many people have Arthur killed? Think about that murder rampage he did in Saint Denis when robbing the bank. At least Micah kills in self defense, but not Arthur.

Or is it because Micah is agonizing the women in our camp for not carrying there own weight? Pretty much how Arthur agonizes Uncle? Is it really so unreasonable for Micah to suggest getting rid of the useless gang members which would make it much easier to evade the law in a small, efficient and fast team?

That's all Micah wanted. A team which he can make money together with, as real outlaws outside the law and moral restrictions. Arthur had to ruin it all, even going so far to throwing out Strauss that poor man.

[Doomier Guy]

Opprinnelig skrevet av ZER0_K%:

Lol you hate evil characters with a passion instead of loving them for it. Micah and Dutch are basically the driving forces behind RDR2.

I don't "hate" fictional characters in a video game. I'm merely pointing out that Micah is quite one dimensional as a character and that the writers missed an opportunity to give Micah redeeming and/or positive qualities. To reflect the duality of human nature. Dutch has that is spades, I do agree on that, and because of it he's one of the most interesting protagonists in gaming history imo.

I just read your last response again. And dayum. Does everyone in the world do good in the same way? There are so many different ways you can show goodness lo. Just because MIcah doesn't donate doesn't mean he is bad. People who don't donate cash to orphans in McDonalds aren't bad either.

Given that Micah is a violent outlaw, well most of the gang is, it's hardly a consolation. And it's Red Dead Redemption. A VERY important theme in the story. It's like you've never played the story I swear.

Opprinnelig skrevet av |VIP-S| Agr:

Its very clear that Micah is trash, and he treats everyone else in camp like trash except for when he needs to build bridges to keep out of trouble with Dutch.

Which is one of the points I'm trying to make. It's all purely selfish in reason on Micah's behalf.

Early on he is nicer to Arthur because he hasn't driven a wedge between him and Dutch yet.
Once he gets Dutch on his side, he lays into Arthur harder than anyone else.

He does so because Arthur is onto Micah's game which makes him the biggest threat.

I don't think disliking one individual makes a person "bad". So I kinda don't agree on the Arthur/Micah relationship. But Micah treats everyone in the gang apart from Dutch like ♥♥♥♥. It's blatantly obvious that he doesn't give a flying fudgeknuckle about anyone other than himself.

Opprinnelig skrevet av ZER0_K%:

The game is well written.

On that we can agree. Expressing that the writers missed an opportunity to create more nuance for one character is really a minor criticism in what is otherwise a stellar game and story.

Also, some people do not appreciate evil-doers.

I absolutely do. It's the ones that have understandable and relatable justifications for what they do which are the best ones however.

Micah is not trash. He is literally one of the best things about RDR2. Whole reason this game exists.

Eh I think that title goes to Dutch more than anything. He's a fascinating character.

[Doomier Guy]

Opprinnelig skrevet av A_Cheeky_Vixen:

The only thing I have to add is that if a story can manage to create that much duel viewing over a character then it definitely did its job correctly. I don't think anyone's wrong here, just different perceptions of different actions, though it would be more constructive if y'all tried to understand each other's perspective rather than convince everyone your POV is the only valid one ;)

I like your argument Zero, even if I don't agree with it, I'll certainly try to replay the story trying to frame Micah as somewhat of a good guy, if only just for the sake of saying I tried :)

Very apt point.

[Tree]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Micah:

Opprinnelig skrevet av A_Cheeky_Vixen:

So you've either not finished the game or I'm seriously concerned about your morals.



Spoilers ahead, fair warning.






Antagonised and probably would have raped Sady Addler if Dutch and Arthur hadn't intervened, before setting fire to her house is one of the many reasons I don't like Micah, yes it was accidental, but that just shows you the type of person he is, too busy indulging his own sick pleasure to pay attention to his surrounding, and in doing so destroying a warm home the gang would have used as a respite.

Also the fact that he took shameless advantage of Dutch losing his marbles to weasel his way into his good graces and completely screw over the entire gang, only to end up betraying them and selling them to the authorities, and putting that blame on Molly, who got summarily executed for it.

In your Strawbery argument you seem to forget he was in this situation because he got caught shooting people left and right with Lenny, and then proceeded to caryr right on merrily shooting left and right to go get his bloody guns.

Besides just because Arthur is hardly an angel doesn't mean Micah isn't a terrible person, that's a completely flawed argument, one character's bad actions does not justify another's.

As for the useless member argument, they don't get rid of "useless" members of the gang because they care about those members, the Dutch Vanderline gang, at least at the beginning is not about ruthless efficiency, they make a point of showing you that in the first chapters, it's completely delusional but they truly believe it.

Charles says it, John says it, Arthur says it, Dutch says it, they all believe it, and the whole point of the narrative is the deconstruction of that illusion through the downward spiral Dutch drags his gang into, until finally Arthur has to make the choice to "betray" Dutch. The game's very theme is how far would you be willing to go for your team, how much you're willing to ignore to justify the actions they take, and what price blind loyalty can have.

Micah is the seed of destruction that stokes the ever increasing madness that befalls Dutch, he's only in it for himself,

He's selfish, vindictive and completely untrustworthy.

Is he well written and believable ? Yes absolutely.

Will I let him rot in the Strawberry prison for as long as I feasibly can ? You betcha.

He betrayed the gang because it was a loser gang who only gave him ♥♥♥♥ all the time. It's only human to be vindictive and passionate for revenge. The difference is that most people IRL are scared of the consequences of seeking out revenge unless they can do it without breaking the law, or if they are religious and don't want to go to hell.

It's also human to be selfish. Very few people are going to go out of their way to help someone else, especially if it costs them something to help the other person. The only times people would help each other is if they can do it without going out of their way to do it.

Micah was a realist and a winner. He knew the rules of the game and he played it well.

Micah, it's sad to hear you think that way. Yeah sure there are people in the world like that, but probably not as many as you may believe. Are there many in Sweden, who would agree with this "game" winning ethos of yours?, because I see people going out of their way, selflessly helping others, who they don't know quite often. Maybe if you were to give it a try, you would notice it more. And try not to confuse what you would do in real life situations with what you would do in a R* video game.

[|VIP-S| Agr]

Opprinnelig skrevet av ZER0_K%:

Micah is not trash.

Yes he is, which is exactly why he is a good character. In fact, I've already said this early on in the thread.

Micah is very clearly a miserable, selfish, racist, who only ever acts in his own self interests.
The entire gang is full of murderers and thieves, but most of them are at least capable of empathizing with each other.

Micah doesn't seem to care about anyone in the gang, not even Dutch. He manipulates Dutch for his own gain, and does everything in his power to alienate Dutch from everyone else.

There is a clear ulterior motive behind the few kind words we hear from his mouth.

He has no redeeming qualities.

[Doomier Guy]

Opprinnelig skrevet av |VIP-S| Agr:

Opprinnelig skrevet av ZER0_K%:

Micah is not trash.

Yes he is, which is exactly why he is a good character. In fact, I've already said this early on in the thread.

Micah is very clearly a miserable, selfish, racist, who only ever acts in his own self interests.
The entire gang is full of murderers and thieves, but most of them are at least capable of empathizing with each other.

Micah doesn't seem to care about anyone in the gang, not even Dutch. He manipulates Dutch for his own gain, and does everything in his power to alienate Dutch from everyone else.

There is a clear ulterior motive behind the few kind words we hear from his mouth.

He has no redeeming qualities.

But that makes him rather one dimensional as a character and plot device no? I don't know about you, but it's often the villains that have relatable, sympathetic qualities that are the most interesting. It's the deconstruction of that with Dutch that drives the most interesting elements of RDR2's plot (and RDR in some ways).

[Ares4X]

Mikah: I make the money, not wash the clothes!

[|VIP-S| Agr]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Joe "Commie Cuck" Biden:

But that makes him rather one dimensional as a character and plot device no? I don't know about you, but it's often the villains that have relatable, sympathetic qualities that are the most interesting. It's the deconstruction of that with Dutch that drives the most interesting elements of RDR2's plot (and RDR in some ways).

He is one dimensional, I agree.

Not every villain needs to be relatable or sympathetic to work.

I think its much more painful to watch Dutch side with Micah because from the player's perspective there is no grey area.

[Awesomesauce]

Nobody is saying Micah is a bad character, he's well written and implemented. We just hate his character because from Arthur's (our) point of view, he's a colossal arse piece, and we want nothing more than to apply buckshot to his limbs all game.

[Lunduke is the Trump of tech]

At the most fundamental level, all humans are selfish and driven by personal gratification. Even Charles and Arthur who go far out of their way and risking their lives without any offered reward to help others are actually doing it for selfish reasons. Because when they help someone they are receiving a reward called "good feelings" thanks to their altruistic genes.

If they didn't get the reward of feeling good for helping someone then they wouldn't help them.

That's what I like about Micah, he has it all figured out.. a very intelligent man. Very reasonable. You think he's untrustworthy because he betrayed Dutch's gang, but like I said, he was entirely justified to do it when they showed so much incompetence and treat him like ♥♥♥♥ all the time.

It's more interesting and refreshing seeing people who have everything figured out instead of people like Arthur and Dutch who are confused and clueless people who don't know what's right and wrong, like most people in the world.

Micah even said in the camp: "we're born, then we do stuff we like and don't like, then we die and there's no hell you go to afterwards. That's all there's to it.". Gotta give him some respect.

If Micah managed to find a better gang where everyone carried their own weight and didn't complain every time they had to kill someone then I'm sure they could trust Micah because it's in Micah's interest to keep the gang going successfully, have a good time with the other members, and make lots of money together. He would need some enormous incentive to betray a gang like that, because a gang like that isn't easy to find.

[ZiffyHead]

Because, he is a low life degenerate who I would have shot in the head, 5 seconds after he started butchering the town and putting a giant bounty on my head, while I'm trying to lay low.

The stupidity would have ended during chapter 2, if I had any choice, but the game wont allow me to execute the trouble making idiots when I get back to camp.

[Tohtori Leka]

Opprinnelig skrevet av ZER0_K%:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Joe "Commie Cuck" Biden:

But that makes him rather one dimensional as a character and plot device no? I don't know about you, but it's often the villains that have relatable, sympathetic qualities that are the most interesting. It's the deconstruction of that with Dutch that drives the most interesting elements of RDR2's plot (and RDR in some ways).

Like I mentioned before. Micah is not always rude. He is an abused child. He has difficulties expressing kindness but some of his actions have kindness. Dutch is the boss to him. Doesn't mean he dislikes everyone. It only happened so because of his character of a bullied person who became a bully. People don't like him and he hates them back, especially after trying to be nice.

Dutch, is just pretending to be good and kind. He is just like Micah. He has no love for anyone but himself. Talk about one dimensional. You should play original RDR and learn more about Dutch.

Arthur is btw an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ murderer. And deserved to die. He has done, arguably more bad things than Micah. Just think about all the killings, robberies etc you can do during the game, and the things you do in the story, the people you kill.

Arthur is such boring protagonist compared to John.

I'm pretty sure Micah's father "abused" him because Micah is a psychopath. You know in those times it was common practice to beat your children if they were bad and Micah was probably bad all the time. He has difficulties expressing kindness because his "kindness" is not genuine but an act. Dutch wasn't the boss to Micah. Micah was the boss in his own mind and he manipulated Dutch while he was pretending to take orders from him.

While Dutch was an outlaw and somewhat of a narcissist, he wasn't anything close to what Micah was. He did actually care about people but he just started losing his mind and Micah crawled in there.

Also, you can't put the blame from the player's actions onto that of the character of Arthur. If the player slaughters everyone in the game, it isn't the Arthur from the story doing that. Arthur was a murderer, sure, but not an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. Killing people doesn't automatically make one an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. The reasons for killing do.

[|VIP-S| Agr]

You're arguing against a point nobody made.

Arthur isn't a saint. The whole gang is full of very bad people.

They are more likeable than Micah because they show empathy. They treat each other like family.

Micah isn't the only bad person in the gang. He just happens to be worse than the rest of them.

Hes worse because he doesn't care about anyone except himself. The others are frequently selfish, but they at least express conflicted feelings and remorse.

Micah doesn't seem capable of that. He's "a survivor", who only looks after himself.

[|VIP-S| Agr]

Opprinnelig skrevet av ZER0_K%:

Or better depending how you see an outlaw and people who lie to themselves.

Socippathy can make for an excellent criminal. It usually makes for a particularly ♥♥♥♥ human being though.

[PafunaMT]

Micah is no sociopath, nor psychopath, as mentioned above. He's just one of those characters that people love to hate. His character is written well, and his voice acting is superb; the grate of his voice and the menacing inflections, all of that is really made to grind on people's nerves. It's over the top, and Micah is just as compelling as Arthur when it comes to emotive reactions from the two.

The real difference between Arthur and Micah I think boils down to charisma and 'relatability' - we're seeing Micah from Arthur's point of view, and given that they are rivals, we tend to 'relate' to Arthur's persona because we're seeing it through his experience. Arthur clearly is a murderous fiend at times, but he comes back to camp and is a personable guy to most of the folks there (that is, if you play him that way). He's integral to the gang and he's been there a long time (what, 20 years?).

Micah, though, all we see is the outside tough guy, we don't have a good vantage point to figure out what's going on with him. The only clue we have about Micah's personal life is the letter from his brother, telling Micah to stay away from him and his family. You can read that a couple ways, such as how it may impact Micah that his own brother can't stand him, or how truly awful Micah is since his own brother can't stand him.

Micah is always on edge, and it's always a hard edge, even when he may be trying to play it soft - he gives the impression that there's always an angle in anything he does, that there is never a kind act in him for kindness' sake. Micah always has some agenda he's trying to play, and no amount of 'good deeds' or attempts at kindness can hide it. And even if Micah does do something nice, just for the sake of it, his very demeanor is so off-putting that it leaves people wondering what the catch is, what ELSE does this guy want from me?

One of my favorite scenes is when Hosea, Dutch and Arthur go fishing together, and it feels like these guys have a history (of course), but the bond between these guys is evident in the story. If you didn't know they were criminal outlaws, you might have mistaken them for drinking buddies.

Knowing what you know, can you imagine anyone going fishing with Micah? Or sitting down and having a pleasant chat over anything? Or a joke? He's not that kind of guy, and it sets him apart from most of the folks he deals with. He's intense about everything, it seems, and that intensity is uncommon; most of us just don't have that level of energy to maintain that intensity, but I think Micah is fueled by a rage that's always just underneath.

I guess in the end for my part, I'd rather play poker with Arthur - I think Micah would shoot me just for sitting down at the table if he didn't like my cigar.

[Lunduke is the Trump of tech]

Opprinnelig skrevet av PafunaMT:

Micah is no sociopath, nor psychopath, as mentioned above. He's just one of those characters that people love to hate. His character is written well, and his voice acting is superb; the grate of his voice and the menacing inflections, all of that is really made to grind on people's nerves. It's over the top, and Micah is just as compelling as Arthur when it comes to emotive reactions from the two.

The real difference between Arthur and Micah I think boils down to charisma and 'relatability' - we're seeing Micah from Arthur's point of view, and given that they are rivals, we tend to 'relate' to Arthur's persona because we're seeing it through his experience. Arthur clearly is a murderous fiend at times, but he comes back to camp and is a personable guy to most of the folks there (that is, if you play him that way). He's integral to the gang and he's been there a long time (what, 20 years?).

Micah, though, all we see is the outside tough guy, we don't have a good vantage point to figure out what's going on with him. The only clue we have about Micah's personal life is the letter from his brother, telling Micah to stay away from him and his family. You can read that a couple ways, such as how it may impact Micah that his own brother can't stand him, or how truly awful Micah is since his own brother can't stand him.

Micah is always on edge, and it's always a hard edge, even when he may be trying to play it soft - he gives the impression that there's always an angle in anything he does, that there is never a kind act in him for kindness' sake. Micah always has some agenda he's trying to play, and no amount of 'good deeds' or attempts at kindness can hide it. And even if Micah does do something nice, just for the sake of it, his very demeanor is so off-putting that it leaves people wondering what the catch is, what ELSE does this guy want from me?

One of my favorite scenes is when Hosea, Dutch and Arthur go fishing together, and it feels like these guys have a history (of course), but the bond between these guys is evident in the story. If you didn't know they were criminal outlaws, you might have mistaken them for drinking buddies.

Knowing what you know, can you imagine anyone going fishing with Micah? Or sitting down and having a pleasant chat over anything? Or a joke? He's not that kind of guy, and it sets him apart from most of the folks he deals with. He's intense about everything, it seems, and that intensity is uncommon; most of us just don't have that level of energy to maintain that intensity, but I think Micah is fueled by a rage that's always just underneath.

I guess in the end for my part, I'd rather play poker with Arthur - I think Micah would shoot me just for sitting down at the table if he didn't like my cigar.

You haven't been paying attention if that's your perspective of Micah. Micah even says that he would have liked having some friends in the gang. He was nice to Arthur and all the other members who carried their own weight. He only started to agonize Arthur after he realized Arthur won't stop with his relentless agonizing against him.. so is it really so horrific for someone to lash back at someone who never stops agonizing you?

I'm sure that Micah would have been a great friend to spend time together with as long as you don't nag and complain constantly like Arthur did.