Major things about the story people missed (major spoilers, too).

[Mister Magician]

For example, everything in the game has to do with foreshadowing; it's somewhat Shakespearean in that way.

Both Sadie and Charles suffer major wounds in the final battle: Sadie gets stabbed in her stomach (though its closer to her liver with the placement of the wound) and charles gets shot in his stomach (though it's right over his kidneys and intestines).

Both of those would be a death sentence even today, if not an instant kill, but they "survive" just long enough to see John's Wedding (weirdly enough, a Catholic Priest does the Ceremony, but its not in a Church as is required) and "say goodbye."

Just a few missions before, Sadie says she "wants to die" and Charles says "you can live a week without a scalp, but it won't be a good week; you can live a month with a stomach wound." Like I said, foreshadowing.

This means both Sadie and Charles are dead, which fits with the overarching narrative that Jack ultimately gets the redemption both Arthur and John fought so hard for, once all the people involved in the van der linde gang are dead (even the pinkertons who hunted them, with ross' death).


On top of that, people would view the story much differently if the reality of the "blackwater massacre" wasn't hidden away to be pieced together in npc dialogue and newspaper lore.

So what happens?

micah finds a number of old wanted posters for dutch back from 20 years ago, and then stalks dutch to join the gang; the idea is to turn the gang in and collect all their bounties.

micah convinces the megalomaniac dutch to take on a very risky set-up job in blackwater: to rob a steam ship. the goal is to either get the members killed or arrested so he can take credit and collect said bounties one by one.

the gang took 57 hostages on the steam ship, after the Pinkertons were right there waiting for them.

dutch used a 19 year old Mother of two as a human shield.

in a panic, dutch then lights the ship on fire, killing the Mother’s two boys right in front of her; which dutch then shoots her in the head to shut her screaming up.

The Pinkertons were originally focused on saving the hostages, but then dedicate themselves to hunting down the gang because the fire dutch causes kills all 57 hostages on the boat.

a multi-hour shootout happens that kills one of the gang members.

the gang manages to escape the city, but dutch goes back in at night and claws open the grave of his own Mother with his bare hands to hide the cash so no one could get it but him (least of all his dedicated worshipers).

this alerts the Pinkertons (not sure if it was a trap), who dutch leads back to the gang in a panic which causes two more gang members to die.

the gang escapes into the mountains and the game starts.

micah wants to go back to blackwater because he doesn’t know where dutch hid the money. the only reason it takes so long for micah to betray the gang is because he knows if he turns them in earlier the money will be lost.

So the whole game is one pre-meditated double-cross by micah, but one that was heavily drawn out because dutch wants to be worshiped.


Feel free to add in your own things that make the intent of the story clearer.

[Kind.]

was a good read.

[Mister Magician]

Kind. eredeti hozzászólása:

was a good read.

Thank you!

[nosquimoriturisumus]

Mister Magician eredeti hozzászólása:

Both Sadie and Charles suffer major wounds in the final battle: Sadie gets stabbed in her stomach (though its closer to her liver with the placement of the wound) and charles gets shot in his stomach (though it's right over his kidneys and intestines).

Both of those would be a death sentence even today, if not an instant kill, but they "survive" just long enough to see John's Wedding (weirdly enough, a Catholic Priest does the Ceremony, but its not in a Church as is required) and "say goodbye."

Gut wounds were extremely dangerous before the development of antibiotics, but they weren't inherently lethal with medical attention. This study from 1917[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] reported postoperative fatality rates of:

• 61% for wounds to the small intestine
  
• 56% for wounds to the colon
  
• 70% for wounds to the rectum
  
• 71% for wounds to the bladder
  
• 41% for wounds to the kidneys, with wounds to the right kidney being more fatal
  
• 36% for wounds to the spleen
  
• 44% for wounds to the liver

That being said, the study also reports that recovery from a wound that penetrates the intestines without operation is extremely unlikely. But Sadie and Charles would be severely incapacitated within an hour if they had a perforated gut. The fact that they walk off the mountain and aren't deathly ill at the wedding implies either that they have plot armour or that they were both lucky enough to not get any organs penetrated, and then were able to buy medical aid with the buckets of money they took off Micah.

[Mister Magician]

nosquimoriturisumus eredeti hozzászólása:

Mister Magician eredeti hozzászólása:

Both Sadie and Charles suffer major wounds in the final battle: Sadie gets stabbed in her stomach (though its closer to her liver with the placement of the wound) and charles gets shot in his stomach (though it's right over his kidneys and intestines).

Both of those would be a death sentence even today, if not an instant kill, but they "survive" just long enough to see John's Wedding (weirdly enough, a Catholic Priest does the Ceremony, but its not in a Church as is required) and "say goodbye."

Gut wounds were extremely dangerous before the development of antibiotics, but they weren't inherently lethal with medical attention. This study from 1917[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] reported postoperative fatality rates of:

• 61% for wounds to the small intestine
  
• 56% for wounds to the colon
  
• 70% for wounds to the rectum
  
• 71% for wounds to the bladder
  
• 41% for wounds to the kidneys, with wounds to the right kidney being more fatal
  
• 36% for wounds to the spleen
  
• 44% for wounds to the liver

That being said, the study also reports that recovery from a wound that penetrates the intestines without operation is extremely unlikely. But Sadie and Charles would be severely incapacitated within an hour if they had a perforated gut. The fact that they walk off the mountain and aren't deathly ill at the wedding implies either that they have plot armour or that they were both lucky enough to not get any organs penetrated, and then were able to buy medical aid with the buckets of money they took off Micah.

Interesting.

It's very painful though, and sadie running like an idiot with a clear liver wound isn't a Good idea.

[Man o' War]

Did you ever notice that when in camp and completely out of dead eye Arthur struggles to keep his eyes open.

The attention to detail is astonishing.

[ULTRA]

Charles clearly got shot in his right shoulder though. LOL thread.

https://youtu.be/NlTeJug0IUk?t=679

It wasn't even in his lungs, or he wouldn't be able to talk properly.

Sadie's survival is still absurd though, she was stabbed like 8 inches right through her spleen, she should have been dead before they even got back.

[HerculeHolmes]

I always thought that Micah's plan was twofold.

1. Systematically isolate Dutch from the rest of his gang so they either leave, are forced out, or are killed during a robbery. That way, Micah can eventually turn him in for the massive bounty on his head once he's alone or near enough to it.

2. Before he can do that, gain Dutch's trust so that he'll reveal where the money is hidden in Blackwater so Micah can go get it after Dutch has been turned in and the heat dies down.

I also think that Micah didn't start collaborating with the Pinkertons until after Guarma. He was sabotaging things from the beginning, but he saw working with the authorities as beneficial since he thought he could negotiate his freedom in exchange for bringing in Dutch.

[Mister Magician]

HerculeHolmes eredeti hozzászólása:

I always thought that Micah's plan was twofold.

1. Systematically isolate Dutch from the rest of his gang so they either leave, are forced out, or are killed during a robbery. That way, Micah can eventually turn him in for the massive bounty on his head once he's alone or near enough to it.

2. Before he can do that, gain Dutch's trust so that he'll reveal where the money is hidden in Blackwater so Micah can go get it after Dutch has been turned in and the heat dies down.

I also think that Micah didn't start collaborating with the Pinkertons until after Guarma. He was sabotaging things from the beginning, but he saw working with the authorities as beneficial since he thought he could negotiate his freedom in exchange for bringing in Dutch.

Well he joined just to get the bounties. It's why he always got arthur into hugely dangerous situations so to get arthur killed or arrested.

[HerculeHolmes]

Mister Magician eredeti hozzászólása:

HerculeHolmes eredeti hozzászólása:

I always thought that Micah's plan was twofold.

1. Systematically isolate Dutch from the rest of his gang so they either leave, are forced out, or are killed during a robbery. That way, Micah can eventually turn him in for the massive bounty on his head once he's alone or near enough to it.

2. Before he can do that, gain Dutch's trust so that he'll reveal where the money is hidden in Blackwater so Micah can go get it after Dutch has been turned in and the heat dies down.

I also think that Micah didn't start collaborating with the Pinkertons until after Guarma. He was sabotaging things from the beginning, but he saw working with the authorities as beneficial since he thought he could negotiate his freedom in exchange for bringing in Dutch.

Well he joined just to get the bounties. It's why he always got arthur into hugely dangerous situations so to get arthur killed or arrested.

But how is he supposed to collect the bounties if Arthur or any of the others are arrested or die in battle?

If he tried to walk into a jail afterwards and say, "hey, I was responsible for you guys capturing that guy, give me the bounty," he'd either be told to go away or he'd be arrested himself if any of them realized who he was.

If Arthur was dead then, if the body was just left laying there, I guess he could claim it and bring it in, but why didn't he do that for any of the other gang members who died?

Actually... it makes more sense for Micah to gain Dutch's trust and find out where the money is stashed (in Blackwater and near camp) and then cut loose and turn them all in to the authorities in exchange for his freedom and the bounties on their heads. Then go get the money afterwards when Blackwater is no longer under lockdown and the invisible snipers are gone.

But that would require him to keep them all alive and on a short leash so he could get the most possible. Maybe that's why he wanted to get rid of the "weak", because they ether didn't have a bounty on their heads due to not being considered dangerous enough, or because the bounties were so low that they wouldn't be worth trying to collect; capture the big fish while the little fish swim away from the net.

[Mister Magician]

HerculeHolmes eredeti hozzászólása:

Mister Magician eredeti hozzászólása:

Well he joined just to get the bounties. It's why he always got arthur into hugely dangerous situations so to get arthur killed or arrested.

But how is he supposed to collect the bounties if Arthur or any of the others are arrested or die in battle?

If he tried to walk into a jail afterwards and say, "hey, I was responsible for you guys capturing that guy, give me the bounty," he'd either be told to go away or he'd be arrested himself if any of them realized who he was.

If Arthur was dead then, if the body was just left laying there, I guess he could claim it and bring it in, but why didn't he do that for any of the other gang members who died?

Actually... it makes more sense for Micah to gain Dutch's trust and find out where the money is stashed (in Blackwater and near camp) and then cut loose and turn them all in to the authorities in exchange for his freedom and the bounties on their heads. Then go get the money afterwards when Blackwater is no longer under lockdown and the invisible snipers are gone.

But that would require him to keep them all alive and on a short leash so he could get the most possible. Maybe that's why he wanted to get rid of the "weak", because they ether didn't have a bounty on their heads due to not being considered dangerous enough, or because the bounties were so low that they wouldn't be worth trying to collect; capture the big fish while the little fish swim away from the net.

Yes, but I don't think he ever got the blackwater money.

As for collecting bounties, micah would just have to bring in their corpse.

[AtoliTadaka]

Just remember that in reality the Anti-Pinkerton Act had been passed in 1893 and wouldn't have been involved like they are in the game so a lot of the story would never have happened if we are looking at realism in game.

[Mister Magician]

OkageTadaka eredeti hozzászólása:

Just remember that in reality the Anti-Pinkerton Act had been passed in 1893 and wouldn't have been involved like they are in the game so a lot of the story would never have happened if we are looking at realism in game.

What predated the fbi was already in swing in 1907.

[Rusalka]

This was an interesting read! Regarding realism, I think it's easier for a game to stretch historical facts a bit further than ones involving human physiology. It's a work of historical fiction, and it's rare to find a work of historical fiction that doesn't deviate from facts (or even just chronology) in one way or another. Even authors who tried really hard, like Tom Clancy and Hilary Mantel, have some errors in their work. But we're all humans, and seeing a human get injured in a way we know is likely fatal can break our suspension of disbelief.

I think the writers of RDR2 didn't intend to kill Charles and Sadie or even imply they died later from their injuries. It wasn't out of the realm of possibility for a person to survive being shot in the shoulder in 1900-1911, but being stabbed in the abdomen, not so much. It's worth noting that the article @nosquimoriturisumus cites refers specifically to servicemen in WWI, and while antibiotics weren't in use, germ theory was completely accepted and surgical techniques were vastly improved (they go into how they're still experimenting on rabbits and cats at the very frontier of abdominal surgery).

Sadie getting stabbed like that and miraculously surviving bothered me. From a storytelling perspective, killing Micah and then having some big dramatic scene of Sadie dying would be anticlimactic and poorly timed, but it really stretches belief that she'd make it off the mountain at all with only total dumbass John and competent but out-of-commission Charles to help her.

I do like how the writers slowly revealed what happened at Blackwater, especially since the details weren't immediately clear to Arthur, either. You learn about it as Arthur does, and different gang members' perspectives show a lot about their moral character and foreshadow what happens late in the game.

[Mister Magician]

Ren eredeti hozzászólása:

This was an interesting read! Regarding realism, I think it's easier for a game to stretch historical facts a bit further than ones involving human physiology. It's a work of historical fiction, and it's rare to find a work of historical fiction that doesn't deviate from facts (or even just chronology) in one way or another. Even authors who tried really hard, like Tom Clancy and Hilary Mantel, have some errors in their work. But we're all humans, and seeing a human get injured in a way we know is likely fatal can break our suspension of disbelief.

I think the writers of RDR2 didn't intend to kill Charles and Sadie or even imply they died later from their injuries. It wasn't out of the realm of possibility for a person to survive being shot in the shoulder in 1900-1911, but being stabbed in the abdomen, not so much. It's worth noting that the article @nosquimoriturisumus cites refers specifically to servicemen in WWI, and while antibiotics weren't in use, germ theory was completely accepted and surgical techniques were vastly improved (they go into how they're still experimenting on rabbits and cats at the very frontier of abdominal surgery).

Sadie getting stabbed like that and miraculously surviving bothered me. From a storytelling perspective, killing Micah and then having some big dramatic scene of Sadie dying would be anticlimactic and poorly timed, but it really stretches belief that she'd make it off the mountain at all with only total dumbass John and competent but out-of-commission Charles to help her.

I do like how the writers slowly revealed what happened at Blackwater, especially since the details weren't immediately clear to Arthur, either. You learn about it as Arthur does, and different gang members' perspectives show a lot about their moral character and foreshadow what happens late in the game.

That's an interesting way to look at it.

I was always annoyed how some characters do and promote openly evil things, and no one calls them out for it, but it's really there to establish that character as a villain.

[Punished Rusty Shackleford]

interesting but i don't buy the whole Sadie and Charles are dead. Knowing a person who got shot in the torso, they weren't exactly dancing at a wedding the following day.