Red Dead Redemption 2

Red Dead Redemption 2

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Yo May 2, 2022 @ 9:32pm
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It wasnt Micah. Abigail was the RAT of RDR 2.

Abigail was ambitious woman who wanted to leave a peaceful life with John and Jack. She never wanted to be part of gang bs and wanted to do to Tahiti or etc. You can see her desire to be real family mother and leave all these gang member out in many random gang conversations.

She was an outlaw but he wanted her son to be lawyer. To do that she needs to leave all the criminals and make the room for her kids to grow in a safe environment. If you know about Abigail origins then you will know she was thief and pros brought by uncle in the gang and literally abused by everyone. She hated all of them and She didn't made a single donation to the gang from chapter 1-6. You can check the gang contributes and will never see Abigail donate 1 cent to the ledger book. Instead contributing for the gang's funding she instead decided to steal others money in Chapter 6..

She later become abuser herself and always rant on John by calling him useless, idiot etc and that made John escape the gang for 1 year. It been told in the beginning of 2nd chapter in the bear hunting Mission.

-Abigail can be spotted Arguing with John about some unknown argument frequenly in the camp. Maybe she was trying to convince John to escape and Since John was loyal man, She could never made him convinced him. The only option was left to rat out the gang as an exchange of Her family immunity.


- Abigail Knew Arthur was the pillar who was holding the gang together. So she made Arthur to go fishing with Jack where Pinkerton agent tried to Offer him immunity as an exchange for Dutch Van der linde. Which He refused. My point is Abigail set the up the meeting with pinkerton agent by sending Arthur alone in the fishing spot so Pinkerton try to buy him off like he already did to abigail.

- In the 2nd train robbery there was no micah and he was locked up in strawberry jail, Still the heist was set up and Lawman show up way faster than it should. The heist was orchestrated by John Marston and It was first time he tried to be mastermind of something. Even Arthur was surprised. Until it turn out to be setup and only guys present here was Arthur, John, Sean and Charles.

- In the saint denis Bank Robbery, Abigail somehow escaped but Hoses didn't. Who told Pinkerton about the bank robbery? Not micah, cause he was present in the robbery. Why risk his own life in the shoot out where you have pre knowledge about the pinkerton interfaces? Cause he didn't. The same bank robbery John was captured alive and intended to be safe in the jail until Dutch dies and He will be out of the Prison to reunion with Abigail again. That's what Abigail wanted. Gang dies in shoot out but John captured alive ( why ? ). Cause Abigail never wanted any harm to John.

- How Abigail somehow got vanished from Camp and End up in Pinkertons Captivity? Abigail intentionally made Pinkerton agents arrest her as an agreement so She knew Arthur and Sadie will come for resque, and that's the perfect time to spout Micah's name so Arthur gonna easily buy it. Pinkterton agent did the same as planned and Arthur as expected believed it, Then Abigail killed off Pinkerton agent so truth dies with him. It was final plan that worked and destroyed the gang completely.

- Abigail also stole the key and wanted to steal all the gang money before pinkertons arrives and She can start solid with John with load of cash. What more evidence do you want?

She was the one playing games and end up as victories. RDR 2 was about how People are becoming more self centered and civilized and Gangs like Dutch are becoming a thing of past. The betrayal of Abigail to destroy the gang and set up his own life for peace is perfectly suit the theme of the game.
Last edited by Yo; May 2, 2022 @ 9:35pm
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Showing 1-15 of 72 comments
Yo May 2, 2022 @ 11:57pm 
Originally posted by Neru:
That actually kinda make sense. The twist dude, never crossed my head, dang. Well, she's a b!atch anyway from even before joining Van Der Linde.
+rep #justiceformicah

And I don't particularly find her attitude towards others exactly pleasant. So another +rep there m8

Sorry, super duper ewwy b!atch. Now that's more like it.
Micah was Victim of his own outspoken Personality and Rockstar needed a Villain without Giving away their Lore by Blatantly making Abigail a Rat which was a Major character in First game. That would piss the gamers off, But instead they let game have its own secret roles and Let gamers think the story and judge based on every actions to get their own conclusions.

So they intentionally made Micah a dislikeble ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ so people just assume he is the bad guy and get their Final villain to get their satisfactory ending. There is zero proof and evidence that Micah is Rat. Aside from Agent Milton ( Who sworn to destroy the gang ) claim that He was and It was a Political claim which was inconsistent. Agent Milton said " Micah was Rat since Guarma" But you can see Every gang activities after Guarma was successful. From killing Cornwall to Looting Train. Perfect everytime. Then if Micah was Rat since Guarma then How Come every move Dutch made after Were successful? On the contary every move gang made before Guarna was unsuccessful when Micah wasn't rat ? Agent Milon is Hired by Cornwall himself and If he has a informer like Micah then why would his own infromer kill his own boss who are paying him ? Makes sense ?

When gang members are all escaping in the chapter 6, Micha was one kept the gang in life support cause Arthur was sick and John was busy getting captured by Pinkertons everytime. He hired his 2 friends to robb the Train and It was success. What kind of Rat hires Mercenaries to betray his own boss ?

The Fact is Agent Milton knew After Arthur is sick its was Micah who was doing most Destruction with Dutch and Its was necessary move to make him apprear as Villain to Arthur so Gang will be miserable dealing with their internal conflicts and That will allow Pinkertons to Make a Final blow and Which they did right after and Abigal knew all about it. Cause She was the one who planned it with Milton but Only to kill him off so the secrets dies with him. Then She stole the gang stash key just right before Pinkertons arrived who would wipe the gang out of existence. Happy ending for Abigail and Bad ending for Gang. Suits the message of the game perfectly" They don't want folks like us no more" There is more and more Civilization and Gangs and Outlaws are things of the past". Abigail wanted life and Civilization cause She have a family and She was tired of all Dutch's Tahiti Nonsense.

If you believes in the quote" Actions speaks louder than words" that There is zero Proof Micah was Rat but There are tons of Hints which leads to Abigail....

Aside from all her Suspicious Action, Abigail real name is Agatha Milton. Which is first name of agent Milton. If you clean shave John marston he looks exactly like agent milton young version. So both Abigail and John was associate somehow by agent Milton. It's just metaphor. Giving clues after clues to solve the rat situation. Which 99% gamers didn't really gave deep thought. They didn't played the story but story played them.
Last edited by Yo; May 3, 2022 @ 12:15am
TyresTyco May 3, 2022 @ 12:01am 
The problem I have with this is.. while it makes sense. There is setup for it the whole game but no payoff. In the end.. it's just headcanon.

Most of the people in the gang are stupid douches. Everyone there besides Sadie has some fault.
Last edited by TyresTyco; May 3, 2022 @ 12:01am
Yo May 3, 2022 @ 12:09am 
Originally posted by TyresTyco:
The problem I have with this is.. while it makes sense. There is setup for it the whole game but no payoff. In the end.. it's just headcanon.

Most of the people in the gang are stupid douches. Everyone there besides Sadie has some fault.
I don't Hate Abigal who decided to make own life instead living in Dutch's kingdom But She was the " Rat" that should be credited to her instead of Micah. The guy was a victim and Played like fiddle. So did Arthur and Possibly John. The Whole Epilogue was all About " Victory of Abigail and Self Interest Comes before anything else"...Which I have no issue cause Dutch was a Mad man and deserves to be treated as such
Last edited by Yo; May 3, 2022 @ 12:11am
Elriadon May 3, 2022 @ 12:11am 
But they wanted to hang John in prison and Abigail was the one who wanted to break him out in the first place. She even wanted to come along. Even it was some plan to get rid of Arthur and Sadie, John confirmed that he was indeed supposed to be hanged eventually, so why would that be the case.

And if she indeed had some kind of deal with the Pinkertons, why not just sit back and go along with their plans, Arthur was gonna be dead sooner or later anyway and the gang was falling apart on its own, didn't need any masterplan for that. The scene where she takes out that Pinkerton agent doesn't look like a calculated move anyway, a few seconds later and Arthur would be dead.

Also, she didn't seem to have any problems just taking Jack and leaving John in the epilogue, so, if her plan was to simply raise Jack away from the gang, why not just do that sooner. John wouldn't care, until the end of the game he says he doesn't even know if Jack is really his son. And if she cared about John, there were a lot of situations in the game where he could've easily been killed if she was indeed a Pinkerton informant. Why would she put John (and her son for that matter) in that kind of danger?

She also didn't seem to be that about the money. In the epilogue, when you get the Blackwater loot, she doesn't even want to hear about it and screams at John for even taking it back with him. On the contrary, she is obsessed with them earning money the honest way, no matter how hard it is.
Last edited by Elriadon; May 3, 2022 @ 12:12am
Yo May 3, 2022 @ 12:35am 
Originally posted by Eltar:
But they wanted to hang John in prison and Abigail was the one who wanted to break him out in the first place. She even wanted to come along. Even it was some plan to get rid of Arthur and Sadie, John confirmed that he was indeed supposed to be hanged eventually, so why would that be the case.

And if she indeed had some kind of deal with the Pinkertons, why not just sit back and go along with their plans, Arthur was gonna be dead sooner or later anyway and the gang was falling apart on its own, didn't need any masterplan for that. The scene where she takes out that Pinkerton agent doesn't look like a calculated move anyway, a few seconds later and Arthur would be dead.

Also, she didn't seem to have any problems just taking Jack and leaving John in the epilogue, so, if her plan was to simply raise Jack away from the gang, why not just do that sooner. John wouldn't care, until the end of the game he says he doesn't even know if Jack is really his son. And if she cared about John, there were a lot of situations in the game where he could've easily been killed if she was indeed a Pinkerton informant. Why would she put John (and her son for that matter) in that kind of danger?

She also didn't seem to be that about the money. In the epilogue, when you get the Blackwater loot, she doesn't even want to hear about it and screams at John for even taking it back with him. On the contrary, she is obsessed with them earning money the honest way, no matter how hard it is.
John was Protected and If He is about to be Hanged then they would did it already. Not Givinghim Labor like Just a minor prioner. In RDR 2 you can see every murderous Criminals get Publically Gets Hanged Immediately. The Prostitute of Valentine for example. Meanwhile They didn't do the same to John who has Thousands Bounty on his head ? Abigail urged to make Sadie and Arthur to go for resque cause She never thought Gang will survive after the Saint denis shootout and John will get his immunity right after But that didn't happen and She probably couldn't stand her Husband in Prison any longer ?

The gang wasnt anywhere near Falling apart. They were more ruthless, Destructive In chapter 5-6. Showing no sign of slow down and Killing the Mafias Like Angelo Bronte, Cornwall, Looting Train and Using the natives to divert all attention to them. Dutch was more closer than ever to compete his Tahiti dream than any time before. He looted Cornwall Bonds, He looted Train and He had money to pack the bags and Leave and Drag John and Abigail with him. If he ever Escapes..Abigail was desperate to escape and can't wait forever to see gang falling apart which even didn't happen in Epilogue. We all seen Dutch has created another Gang with Micah where John goes to Take Revenge and Guess who asked him not to Go for it ? Abigail.

John was never in Danger. In every robbery he either captured alive and Spared. Meanwhile Pinkertons wouldnt do the same to other members. They won't ask you to Surrender but Shoot like Maniacs but How come John was privileged to be Prisoner everytime ? Also She always called John Stupid, Idiot, Careless for unknown Reason ? Listen to All the Quarrelling in the Tent. Probably asking him to leave everything and Go with her and He was Refusing. Abigail loved John and She always wanted to leave with John, Not only Jack.

She cared about Freedom more about money but She needed the gang money cause they had zero that time. When Later She had plenty and didn't need to risk his husband life for extra Blood money...
Last edited by Yo; May 3, 2022 @ 12:38am
Yo May 3, 2022 @ 12:45am 
Originally posted by Neru:
Has it ever been confirmed by R* in an interview or tweet or dev-talk or sum thin'?

I'm too lazy to write btw, sorry
They wont be ever. They Created a lore not to be spoiled by themselves. Also the lead writer left the Company. I doubt he will talk about the game ever again.
Elriadon May 3, 2022 @ 1:24am 
Originally posted by Mr_Brown:
Originally posted by Eltar:
But they wanted to hang John in prison and Abigail was the one who wanted to break him out in the first place. She even wanted to come along. Even it was some plan to get rid of Arthur and Sadie, John confirmed that he was indeed supposed to be hanged eventually, so why would that be the case.

And if she indeed had some kind of deal with the Pinkertons, why not just sit back and go along with their plans, Arthur was gonna be dead sooner or later anyway and the gang was falling apart on its own, didn't need any masterplan for that. The scene where she takes out that Pinkerton agent doesn't look like a calculated move anyway, a few seconds later and Arthur would be dead.

Also, she didn't seem to have any problems just taking Jack and leaving John in the epilogue, so, if her plan was to simply raise Jack away from the gang, why not just do that sooner. John wouldn't care, until the end of the game he says he doesn't even know if Jack is really his son. And if she cared about John, there were a lot of situations in the game where he could've easily been killed if she was indeed a Pinkerton informant. Why would she put John (and her son for that matter) in that kind of danger?

She also didn't seem to be that about the money. In the epilogue, when you get the Blackwater loot, she doesn't even want to hear about it and screams at John for even taking it back with him. On the contrary, she is obsessed with them earning money the honest way, no matter how hard it is.
John was Protected and If He is about to be Hanged then they would did it already. Not Givinghim Labor like Just a minor prioner. In RDR 2 you can see every murderous Criminals get Publically Gets Hanged Immediately. The Prostitute of Valentine for example. Meanwhile They didn't do the same to John who has Thousands Bounty on his head ? Abigail urged to make Sadie and Arthur to go for resque cause She never thought Gang will survive after the Saint denis shootout and John will get his immunity right after But that didn't happen and She probably couldn't stand her Husband in Prison any longer ?

The gang wasnt anywhere near Falling apart. They were more ruthless, Destructive In chapter 5-6. Showing no sign of slow down and Killing the Mafias Like Angelo Bronte, Cornwall, Looting Train and Using the natives to divert all attention to them. Dutch was more closer than ever to compete his Tahiti dream than any time before. He looted Cornwall Bonds, He looted Train and He had money to pack the bags and Leave and Drag John and Abigail with him. If he ever Escapes..Abigail was desperate to escape and can't wait forever to see gang falling apart which even didn't happen in Epilogue. We all seen Dutch has created another Gang with Micah where John goes to Take Revenge and Guess who asked him not to Go for it ? Abigail.

John was never in Danger. In every robbery he either captured alive and Spared. Meanwhile Pinkertons wouldnt do the same to other members. They won't ask you to Surrender but Shoot like Maniacs but How come John was privileged to be Prisoner everytime ? Also She always called John Stupid, Idiot, Careless for unknown Reason ? Listen to All the Quarrelling in the Tent. Probably asking him to leave everything and Go with her and He was Refusing. Abigail loved John and She always wanted to leave with John, Not only Jack.

She cared about Freedom more about money but She needed the gang money cause they had zero that time. When Later She had plenty and didn't need to risk his husband life for extra Blood money...

John said that they were talking about hanging him before Arthur and Sadie rescued him. As for why he wouldn't be hanged right after capture? They want Dutch. Milton is literally offering to let Arthur, his right hand man, go if he just brings him Dutch. Agent Milton just wants Dutch and doesn't seem terribly concerned about the rest of the gang. Again, he literally says he just wants Dutch, not the rest of the gang, just him. And John is someone who might be a possible asset, helping them take Dutch down. Only John wasn't going to play along and once they realized it, they were probably thinking that they might as well just hang him now since he's no going to help them anyway.

And Sean was captured in Blackwater, yet they didn't hang him. Before the gang rescued him, Sean was being transported to the same prison John later ended up in. So it's not like John is special in that regard.

And why they wanted Dutch so badly? It's not stated outright, but it's hinted that it was because they were concerned about Dutch's "ideology" spreading. He was also very popular through the gang's earlier charitable ventures and they probably wanted to make an example out of him before his legacy causes problems.

The point of Chapter 6 was that the gang was falling apart. Atleast the old gang. People talking about how they don't trust Dutch anymore and planning on leaving, even Arthur does that, no matter how you play him. In the end, the gang was a shell of its former self and the majority of members were either dead or left. They were also in a very bad spot, having both the Pinkertons AND the army on their trail. They were done and everyone but Dutch knew it. They might've taken the fight to their enemies, but all it did was draw even more attention to them. They were doing the same thing over and over again and each time, the consequences were worse then before and in the end it caught up to them.

Even if literally every agent and bounty hunter they ever sent after the gang knew about John AND recognized him in the heat of battle (doubtful), he was always on the frontlines of every gang battle and even if they had orders to capture him alive, there's no telling if they would actually be successful in that. Look at what happened to Sean. It perfectly demonstrates what might have happened to John too. At that point, she would be better off doing something like "Hey John, come with me to town, I need your help with something." and once there John would be captured by Pinkertons and out of harms way while the rest of the Pinkertons raid the camp. And Abigail could always return with some excuse about how they were ambushed if they still needed her as a mole.

And Abigail is always arguing with John for the following reasons:

1) It's her personality. She's simply someone with a short temper who loves to complain. Even when she's happy.

2) Her insulting John is either because she's frustrated with his behavior or because she was seriously worried and concerned for him, this is just her way of showing it and venting out her feelings and anger. Some people are like that.

3) She wants John to take care of his son and be a family man, but John is conflicted about the whole thing.

And she doesn't want John to have anything to do with anything remotely involving gangs or weapons even in the first part of the epilogue when they are dirt poor.
Last edited by Elriadon; May 3, 2022 @ 1:28am
Pyx May 3, 2022 @ 1:27am 
There are parts of the story that are left to interpretation, and I do believe a lot of the story like Dutch hitting his head and Micah manipulating him are a bit off. Dutch is "saved" by Micah is how they met, a bit out of character for Micah isn't it? It is pretty clear Hosea is sick from the beginning and he is the real man with the plan for the gang and Micah is picked by Dutch to replace him. He was always going to be 2nd in command when Hosea passed, it was the whole reason he was in the gang, and the whole reason he treated the rest of the gang like crap and didn't care what they thought. Only he and Dutch knew of this arrangement. The whole Blackwater thing was Micah's show and Dutch killed that girl because he was listening to MIcah. Everything good about Dutch is because he listened to Hosea, and when he switched to Micah he became more like Micah.

He is very charismatic but not a strong personally, also why he read Evelyn Miller so much and he had such a huge impact on his personality. Micah is a complete rat as far as handing Arthur over to the O'Driscolls. There is a camp scene in chapter 3 where he donates $25 bucks in camp and sends Pearson to town to get food. Then pulls Pearson over to tell the story and puts out the plan of He and Dutch meeting Colm and Arthur protecting them. This was all most likely setup while he was in jail in Strawberry with the ODriscoll and why he killed him first thing on escape. Micah mentions during his Stage robbery in chapter 4 that he doesn't leave loose ends like the rest of them. Also when you escape Strawberry with Micah you end up and Lone Mule Stead which is where Arthur is tortured when he is captured.

I mentioned in a thread the other day on a youtube video about Abigail possibly being the snitch and why Milton said Micah was. I don't think she was any type of mastermind, more likely doing what Milton said trying to get Dutch. I don't think she would betray Hosea so when he killed Hosea she was probably ready to get out of the mess she got herself into, and then when Arthur and Sadie came to rescue her instead of Dutch like Miltion wanted she killed him when the opportunity presented itself. I had a lot of the same ideas after several playthroughs, but the problem with most posts are people jump on a hill and die defending it. It is better to say here is a possible interpretation of the story, take it for what you will.

I hated Micah the most on my first playthrough, but really blame Dutch for most everything now. He finally saw how much he lost with his decisions when Arthur died, and then betrayed Micah at the end as well. He was a narcissist that had to stay in power over the gang above everything else, and believed he was in complete control until it was way to late. The best stories don't lay everything out for people and leave some mystery so people talk about it years later on a steam forum.
Last edited by Pyx; May 3, 2022 @ 1:31am
Elriadon May 3, 2022 @ 1:32am 
Originally posted by Pyx:
There are parts of the story that are left to interpretation, and I do believe a lot of the story like Dutch hitting his head and Micah manipulating him are a bit off. Dutch is "saved" by Micah is how they met, a bit out of character for Micah isn't it?

It's hinted that Micah planned the whole thing to get in Dutch's good graces and into the gang. He was watching their activities even before he met Dutch.
JuiceWSA May 3, 2022 @ 1:32am 
I saw Micah kick Cain. I was like Paden - seeing the horse thief on my horse and slapping my hip to find I'm unarmed.

For that, if I had my way, I'd hog tie him and feed him feet first, an inch at a time, into a campfire - alive. While I craft Special Snake OIl over his sizzling meat.
Last edited by JuiceWSA; May 3, 2022 @ 1:38am
Originally posted by JuiceWSA:
I saw Micah kick Cain.

For that, if I had my way, I'd hog tie him and feed him feet first, an inch at a time, into a campfire - alive. While I craft Special Snake OIl over his sizzling meat.

Well said:}
Twitchey May 3, 2022 @ 2:03am 
Originally posted by Mr_Brown:
- In the 2nd train robbery there was no micah and he was locked up in strawberry jail, Still the heist was set up and Lawman show up way faster than it should. The heist was orchestrated by John Marston and It was first time he tried to be mastermind of something. Even Arthur was surprised. Until it turn out to be setup and only guys present here was Arthur, John, Sean and Charles.

This point is a good example of you working backwards from a conclusion or having a confirmation bias here in this fanfic of yours.

If the only guys present were Arthur, John, Sean and Charles, how does that implicate Abigail? You say Micah wasn't even there for it, but neither was Abigail (and who says Abigail ever left the camp at all there, Micah is in close proximity with the law, implying if anyone said anything, it was probably him). Not only could the information have been found out by anybody prior to the robbery, seeing that they are all living together, sleeping in relatively close quarters and communicating constantly.

Also because the trains could have been running extra security for whatever reason (like a recent train robbery for example). Not to mention it is a game not actual real life, so sometimes there can just be plot holes with no reasonable explanation. Being fiction it is very open to interpretation, for example you could probably make similar arguments about Jack being the "real rat", but you have to also do some similar mental gymnastics to make it fit.

This is also assuming there isn't some random easter egg in the game that provides proof in one way or the other of what exactly happened, but the ambiguity might be intentional too, as a story element.

Like someone said above the most likely theme is that no one in the gang is a good guy, they are all seriously flawed in their own ways, with Micah and Dutch being seen as the "worst" of it due to their decision making getting so many in the gang killed. And that's just looking at it from a "familial" perspective, i.e. it could be argued that Arthur is the "worst" because the game puts him in a position where he kills so many people in general, but again, it is a game made for entertainment, and the player is playing as Arthur, so therefore he partakes in the most of the "action".

With that in mind, from what I remember Abigail doesn't personally kill anyone, and it isn't directly suggested she gets anyone killed either, so on the morality scale she is probably one of the highest on the list in the gang, one has to try to connect a bunch of questionable threads in order to even suggest that she might be indirectly responsible for some of the gang dying. The shoe just doesn't fit in the way you want it to.
in May 3, 2022 @ 2:41am 
He was a rat. The sole goal of micah was getting hands on that 150k of hidden Blackwater's cash. He didn't give a ♥♥♥♥ about any of gang members. He ratted for pinkertons, got Hosea killed, who was the only other member besides Dutch that knew where Blackwater money was hidden and was a common sense of the gang. Killed Susan, Arthur himself, made a puppet out of Dutch etc. I don't know why these useless theories must be made when things are so obvious.
JuiceWSA May 3, 2022 @ 2:41am 
Originally posted by Twitchey:
from what I remember Abigail doesn't personally kill anyone

She absolutely shoots Milton right in his head - and fortunately it's fatal (about 3 chapters too late). Her lone redeeming action and like every other woman - it took her too long to get ready (sorry Kizz...lol)
Last edited by JuiceWSA; May 3, 2022 @ 2:49am
Pyx May 3, 2022 @ 3:00am 
Originally posted by Eltar:
It's hinted that Micah planned the whole thing to get in Dutch's good graces and into the gang. He was watching their activities even before he met Dutch.

I'm sure you are referring to the paper clips at his camp near Strawberry. I think it is again a grey area left to interpretation, but that is a likely explanation. Just stating you never hear Dutch's side of the story, only Micah's and he isn't the most trustworthy source. But any theory that has Micah taking action for money or for himself is on brand. He has no redeemable traits.
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Date Posted: May 2, 2022 @ 9:32pm
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