How shields work in the game? (Holtzman effect) + question about balance between classes

[IGOROCK]

Good day to all readers, developers and other players. I am a big fan of the Frank Herbert book saga and I am looking forward to the release of this project with great hopes.

My question arose while watching numerous presentations of the combat system from developers from Funcom. I am very surprised that ballistic weapons quite often destroy the energy shields of characters, despite the Holtzman effect described in the books, and weapons that shoot darts turn into ordinary submachine guns, destroying shields on the same principle as other weapons.

I understand that this is one of the elements of the game's balance, but I have a feeling that the shooters in the new Dune game will become a meta very quickly.

Dear developers, please pay attention to this, because it's not for nothing that people in Herbert's world prefer edged weapons to firearms.

PS: Considering that using a shield in the deserts of Arrakis is dangerous for your life, shooters can occupy advantageous positions and arrange so-called shooting in vast territories. Consider this, among other things, when creating a balance among the game classes.

Don't make our knife chip and shatter! :)

[De Vilks]

I'm also a bit worried that the melee combat will be rather rare, used exclusively in duels and small scale fights, and be completely useless in large scale fights. But I think there were some skills in melee skill trees to make character more durable in combat against ranged. We have yet to see.

[Monster]

Also; what happens if you activate your shield whilst stood on the sands? The lore says 'M-M-M-MULTIWORM!!' but I doubt every Shai-Hulud on the map will come to attack in gameplay terms, maybe it'll just be super-attracting to the nearest.

[Shintai]

How many times did you see a gun pop the shield in the combat live stream? Its rather a gun person that should ask why a SMG at sub 10m isnt popping a shield with disrupter ammo.

Also if a gun person cant pop a shield, then what? We all play melee? :P

[Nick]

Originally posted by Monster:

Also; what happens if you activate your shield whilst stood on the sands? The lore says 'M-M-M-MULTIWORM!!' but I doubt every Shai-Hulud on the map will come to attack in gameplay terms, maybe it'll just be super-attracting to the nearest.

True.
And it's actually something interesting.
It mainly means (canon) that if you are shielded in the desert you are marked worm's food ("nearest" I guess in the game will mean some worm will rezz nearby giving you no hope).
Or this could be used as tactic in Deep Desert? I mean instead of using a "thumper device" to call a "Grandfather of the Desert", somebody can just activate a shield? May be dieing in the action but at least making a spot being devastated and swallowed in a few seconds?
And this means that in the Deep Desert anybody could be 1-shot-sniped by anybody anytime?
I got swordmasters will have some deflection (not reflection) capabilities but sounds very inadequate to hope to survive even in a 1vs1 scenario.
I fear this will make Deep Desert a spot for vehicles only: ornitopters in the sky, harvester on ground and stop.

[talerran]

Mostly agree with the OP. Shields should be used MUCH less. Not only do they attract sandworms but it is implied that sand can short out shields, thus another reason for not using a shield in the desert. As for ranged combat, several times in Dune there was reference to "slow pellet stunners". Indeed, I believe, in Dune, that Thufir Hawat was taken down by such a weapon. It is also mentioned in Dune that, after Paul made first contact with the Fremen, Stilgar ordered him to give back the gun that Paul had taken from Jamis. One thing that I never understood was that the Fremen never used shields but the Harkonnen did not used slug throwers (i.e. firearms). Maybe the noise would draw sandworms? Funcom has made several changes from the book and I think making ranged weapons more effective is a good idea. From a player perspective no ranged combat would be the kiss of death for a science-fiction game.

[Monster]

I'm sure they must have considered it, given their explanation of laser+shield mechanics in one of the vids. It'd just be nice to know if there is any ingame effect, and their reasoning behind why. I totally get the reasons for the laser/shield choice, so hopefully they've got a reasoning for whatever they decided.

[Chaon]

The shields have a limit to how much they can block when fired at. Once that limit is reached, they shield has to recharge before it is effective again.

They probably made them act that way to stop the game from turning into melee combat all the time in the endgame. Slap on a shield and ignore all ranged combat.

As for the sand worms, with a shield on then I suspect that the vibrations you generate just from walking or travelling will be amplified and attract a worm faster.

The weapons are called dart guns for a reason. Darts are lower velocity projectiles in this game thus fit into the game logic.

[IGOROCK]

Originally posted by Chaon:

The shields have a limit to how much they can block when fired at. Once that limit is reached, they shield has to recharge before it is effective again.

They probably made them act that way to stop the game from turning into melee combat all the time in the endgame. Slap on a shield and ignore all ranged combat.

As for the sand worms, with a shield on then I suspect that the vibrations you generate just from walking or travelling will be amplified and attract a worm faster.

The weapons are called dart guns for a reason. Darts are lower velocity projectiles in this game thus fit into the game logic.

Yes, I'm understand all about that. And I'm actually not asking how exactly it works :)

Rather, I'm trying to draw attention to the discrepancy between books and games. Why I'm see how npc shooters destroy player shield in two seconds (and what will be if there no npc but another player with gun?). Why is it necessary to slay an enemy shooter with four to five daggers (which will take about five seconds), and to shoot the same shooter it will take two to three shots (which will take about three seconds in the worst case)? Is there a thoughtful balance here? If so, I have no questions, but if not, I ask to pay attention to it and make balance between classes before release.

With best regards, Igorock.

[IGOROCK]

Originally posted by Monster:

I'm sure they must have considered it, given their explanation of laser+shield mechanics in one of the vids. It'd just be nice to know if there is any ingame effect, and their reasoning behind why. I totally get the reasons for the laser/shield choice, so hopefully they've got a reasoning for whatever they decided.

I'm totally agree with you! And maybe there no subatomic explosion in game, but two died men in combat?..

With best regards, Igorock.

[IGOROCK]

Originally posted by Shintai:

How many times did you see a gun pop the shield in the combat live stream? Its rather a gun person that should ask why a SMG at sub 10m isnt popping a shield with disrupter ammo.

Also if a gun person cant pop a shield, then what? We all play melee? :P

Not all in one time, just how lore working in books. If you in a location where you can wear shield, you can be better then shooters. If you in a location where you can't wear shield (like desert sands) shooter have an advantage over melee. Just like rock, paper, scissors. But now on livestreams I'm see how shooters has advantage before melee in all situation.

With best regards, Igorock.

[Chaon]

Originally posted by IGOROCK:

Yes, I'm understand all about that. And I'm actually not asking how exactly it works :)

Rather, I'm trying to draw attention to the discrepancy between books and games. Why I'm see how npc shooters destroy player shield in two seconds (and what will be if there no npc but another player with gun?). Why is it necessary to slay an enemy shooter with four to five daggers (which will take about five seconds), and to shoot the same shooter it will take two to three shots (which will take about three seconds in the worst case)? Is there a thoughtful balance here? If so, I have no questions, but if not, I ask to pay attention to it and make balance between classes before release.

With best regards, Igorock.

The devs said that they were changing some things from the books to make the game better for people to play. They have removed all the named characters from the books and put this game into an alternative universe where people like Paul weren't born.

I suppose it's similar with the weapons.

And shooting a shielded player or NPC takes more than just a few shots to take down their shield in the combat livestream. And that is a simple balancing change that they can do before release.

[Mr_Razerz_Skull]

Originally posted by Chaon:

Originally posted by IGOROCK:

Yes, I'm understand all about that. And I'm actually not asking how exactly it works :)

Rather, I'm trying to draw attention to the discrepancy between books and games. Why I'm see how npc shooters destroy player shield in two seconds (and what will be if there no npc but another player with gun?). Why is it necessary to slay an enemy shooter with four to five daggers (which will take about five seconds), and to shoot the same shooter it will take two to three shots (which will take about three seconds in the worst case)? Is there a thoughtful balance here? If so, I have no questions, but if not, I ask to pay attention to it and make balance between classes before release.

With best regards, Igorock.

The devs said that they were changing some things from the books to make the game better for people to play. They have removed all the named characters from the books and put this game into an alternative universe where people like Paul weren't born.

I suppose it's similar with the weapons.

And shooting a shielded player or NPC takes more than just a few shots to take down their shield in the combat livestream. And that is a simple balancing change that they can do before release.

I want to disagree for some moments. I am not a huge fan of this Universe. But I started to look into it a few days ago. And even I understand that the gun can penetrate (destroy) shields is ridiculous.

When I saw that your personal shield turned off when you start firing..I caught a thought that it is incredibly perfect. And how innovative and in a new way PVP/PVE shooter part can become. It will be more exciting, addictive and fresh than all last games like this. I have no some complaints about current combat animations cause it is MMORPG, it is always a bad part of this games. But devs want to improve it. However if we have this ranged "balance", there will be no point in swordsmaster. It is a shame.

Thats the perfect part of Dune Universe. It is sci-fi middle age with hierarchy and combat style. I have no complaints about removal a nuke cause of lasguns to shields. I have no complaints about removal a special moving in desert. Cause yeah..this will be weird a bit. But ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ personal shields. It's like..I don't know.. in Star Wars a lightsaber wouldn't deflect blasters at all.

[Mr_Razerz_Skull]

And I'm really concerned that this topic has barely been raised in the community. Сause I've been trying for a long time to find at least some discussion of this.

[Belinos]

This is really a discussion that cant be had. Anyone that does know, cant speak. Everyone else is just speculating and arguing without knowing anything and has fear of the unknown. I am sure the developers made the game to be able to include both mele and dart weapons or any other weapon we have seen with some sort of balance. I'm not sure how much PvP plays a role in this game to be honest, but it might be a moot point if the servers dont have the ability to have massive warfare like we are used to seeing in some mmorpgs. I personally dont see this game having massive PvP with tons of people. I see this game being more like Conan Exiles with a limit of how many players are on each server. I dont see 1000 people on one server in this game, all battling for spice. It sounds good, but this is funcom. I see 50 people, max

[Mr_Razerz_Skull]

Originally posted by Shintai:

How many times did you see a gun pop the shield in the combat live stream? Its rather a gun person that should ask why a SMG at sub 10m isnt popping a shield with disrupter ammo.

Also if a gun person cant pop a shield, then what? We all play melee? :P

That's how Dune Universe combat works. This is not an ordinary shooter. This is basically not a shooter in its direct sense. Troopers can become "supports" in this game. Cause they can fast kill unshielded enemies, repel shielded enemies and fast mark shielded enemies for their team. Cause MMORPG is about team. And it would be perfect and special in this genre (as a shooter too).