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You say "you can pay to skip weapon and character grind, only thing so far" as though you're downplaying the pay-to-win. Pay-to-win is the antithesis of gaming and accomplishments. Sure wow does have pay-to-win, but that doesn't mean it's acceptable.
It's a freemium game that they slapped a premium to access earlier and it's full of pay-to-win micro transactions no matter how big or small, call it what it is, but don't downplay it.
The gameplay loop is: run dungeons -> farm drops from bosses -> use drops to craft new weapons or heroes.
Once you've crafted a new hero or weapon, you still need to level it up from Lv. 1, so all it does is help you skip the early part of the grind. You can also only buy one copy of each hero, but you need multiple for ascendance (future feature). So you get ahead temporarily by spending but you really don't get anything that everyone else can't get, and proportionately speaking, it's nothing huge.
I can understand people getting mad about the wait times but the game itself is great (once you're in -- my malding evaporated once I'd gotten several hours in). Their monetisation is actually fair now that they've promised to get rid of that 1100/1150 trick.
The only temporarily P2W thing is Heroic Kyros (he has 5% higher stats than his normal version), but quite frankly I'm okay with it; there'll be other heroic versions farmable later and I think that founders who drop $150 on a complete unknown SHOULD get something exclusive to brag about further down the line.
Oh good another person who just throws out pay to win without any definition that is worthwhile badoing.
i might as well just say "your name begins with M which is evil, so you are evil, i dont need to clarify"
not precise, you get a bunch of other stuff including the premium season progressions + currency and whatever. so the value of the heroic chars is much less than $150, however its unclear if you'll ever be able to buy them without an expensive bundle.
pay to win in the context of a non pvp grind game is always paying for progression.
the problem with that is when the grind intentionally made tedious to basically force people to pay $ if they value their time at all.
example: I want to collect everything. Each thing takes 30 hours of mindless, non-progression grind to get it and there are 5 things (characters in this case).
That's 150 hours, or, i could pay $10 or something to get one of them. $10 is worth 30 hours to a lot of people, easily, 30 hours which could be spent levelling something new / a new character, etc.
And that's not counting all of the various weapons which are more grinds, not as bad as characters, but still bad.
Some people try to play the semantic game of 'there's no competition so it can't be p2w' but obviously in that context it is what is meant, if "winning" is "collecting everything."
one of the tales games flat out had the ability to purchase levels for $. this wouldn't be a problem if the grind wasn't intentionally made completely mindnumbing to the point that spending $3 or whatever was completely worth the skip.
Heck, in this context it isn't even clear how you're supposed to actually finish the season tower in 3 months without paying $$$.
And so yeah, it's up to you if you define collection games basically making it impossible to collect everything, tied to gameplay functionality (different characters and weapons) with a convenient way to bypass the tedium via $ as P2w but the label doesn't matter much when faced with the option, you're either ok with the spend or not ok.
the game would be much, much different if it was even 1/2 as easy to grind w/o paying in to it.
and thats a good definition, but it is a definiton.
i say it again because it seems people miss it. "CALLING SOMETHING PAY TO WIN WITHOUT A DEFINITION IS ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ WORTHLESS"
i think the argument of "regardless of the term, paying for progress will incentivize design that is more grindy" but that loses the nuance that its still under the condition that its interesting enough to keep playing regardless, or its so cheap that people will just do it.
but there is a massive spectrum of "pay 1 buck to skip this 1 minute wait" and "pay 1 buck to skip this 1000 hours pay" which, as i specifically mentioned, the important part is mentioning that you CAN pay to skip it, because thats whats in the game. i just dislike people going "NUUURUGBRHG PAY TO WIN"
also the battlepasses remain forever from what i understand, so there is the downside of eternal battlepasses.
...and people continue to accept this junk. Not just accept it, rabidly eat it up. Professional ♥♥♥♥ eaters.
for clarity, i consider it p2w when progression is purchasable because pay2bypassartificiallyinflatedgrind doesn't really roll off the tongue. i think most people just bucket "if there is something you CAN earn in game but you can also buy it then it = p2w" because the pull is far too strong to make something needlessly complicated/grindy just to incentivize paying cash instead.
to put it another way, if there were no p2bypass options, any given game would likely be less grindy.
and ugh on the battlepasses... makes sense as i've played the game a ton (relative to how much I tolerate these games generally) and have made barely any tower progress.
Its quite sad people are happily giving money to a "game" that's designed to make you spend money for worthless things, I hate modern games and gamers.
take a look at the roadmap
MK Ultra 3.0 stuff pretty much.
i disagree, which is the point, that there are over 9000 definitions for pay to win which is why its worthwhile to talk about what one means with it, or even smarter disregard it all the same and phrase the actual problem, in your case "if you can pay to bypass then it incentivizes grind and will be too alluring"
i feel the opposite, for me i separate payment and grinding into two categories, in that it doesnt matter how much ♥♥♥♥ you can pay for, if you can reasonably unlock it yourself, which is why im in the works to craft the night harvest daggers to see how bad it is and so far it seems fairly straightforward.
also the fact that what people call "grind" is the actual game, you just do dungeons with specific modifiers, say you buy everything, now what? you still need to level them and you are still doing the thing you called "grinding" before.
also the fact that you can buy, pretty cheaply, all base weapons is a massive advantage in the favour of it, as im using the base daggers now and they are perfectly fine but not necessarily what i want, but i can still play around them.
as opposed to something like warframe where you had way more unique weapons but then either had to get them or shill out money and pay, from memory there is like 1 flame thrower? and one whip which gives money, more unique weapons are interesting but also if some weapon types are plain out unobtainable in a reasonable time then it hits harder.
We have reached a time where people can cry all they want about monetization, but the only solution is to GTFO away from live service games, because they need to make money somehow, so for me its way more worthwhile to discuss how bad something is and how hindering it is instead of simply throwing a blanket statement "bad"
also again for the battlepass if it lasts infinitely then does it matter? you have all the time in the world to get it. "You will NOT be able to buy an earlier season pass after the season expires. But, if you did purchase it when it was available it will never expire. You will be able to explore / progress it at your leisure at any point into the future."
I personally like the idea of battlepasses, but again people will complain about literally everything so im just kinda jaded at it, people will complain about cosmetics even in games where you can unlock plenty of stuff for free, so its just a bit tiresome.
if they add a weapon that you have to grind 1000 hours for or pay 20 dollars and it deals 8x as much damage as everything else then sure im there with you, but its pretty obvious that much like warframe the gameplay is centered around doing what you want and getting the materials for more stuff, eg again the harvest daggers requires solar dungeons, which you can craft easily from getting open world resources, so i have a loop of doing dungeons for solar which also gives me the other materials needed, its playing the game.
and im wildly impressed that so far i havent been smacked in the face by daily deals, daily logins and timers like warframe