Devs: Ditch the debt, it adds nothing to game play

[pyrhic]

Starting a billion bucks in debt adds nothing to the game play and instead just front loads the grind(and makes it apparent). Most games are about resource collection, and starting resource collection at a negative amount instead of 0 is just wasting players time. Instead, I think the focus should be on what to do with your money that you earn and here's some ideas.

Buy better/more diverse gear: Pretty simple concept, start off with basic gear, then buy upgraded versions. Give the player choice: do you want a suit that protects you against fire, shock or cold? A cutter that cuts fast or one that is durable? Thrusters that are efficient or powerful? Carry a lot of tethers or stronger ones? Make any 'best of' and 'no downside' options very expensive. Maybe add in experimental effects or items (particularly if you did something exceptional or as a favor)

Rent the salvage bay: start off with the corp paying for the bay(and taking the lions chunk of the salvage), but eventually let the player rent the bay. Maybe I rent the bay for 5 days for $10M - then I can decide whether its better to process 5 ships in that time, or focus on 1.

Let the player become their own corp: when they start accumulating enough money allow them to spend it by becoming a corp. This allows them to make a corp name, start acquiring assets and compete with other corps for wealth/profit etc

Let the player bid on ships: After the player is able to rent the bay, the next step would be bidding on ship salvage. The gecko may be worth 18M, but the player needs to purchase the ship to work on it, so they'd bid against AI for rights to salvage the ship. The difference between bay rental/ship purchase and amount of salvage would be the profit/loss for the endeavor.

Random ship condition: some ships are just retired in good condition, but others might be broken down in various degrees, have battle damage or have rare parts or cargo. This would work well with the bid mechanic - the gecko might be worth 18M new, but its reported it has extensive battle damage maybe up to xx% of value - how much would you pay to try to salvage this.

Allow the player to decide when to clear the barge: while stuff is in the barge, it can get damaged and decrease in value. Allow the player to decide when to move it and lock in those items(for a cost)

Special recovery requests: a chance to earn more money(and special favors?) - a previous passenger/pilot etc asks you to successfully recover something hidden in the derelict vessel.

Rush jobs: Too many ships are coming in and they're backing up: you get a ship at a discount price, but you only have one day to clear everything you can.

Military jobs: bidding on military ships is expensive and they might have experimental systems that you have no idea how to handle. They're valuable though, if you can salvage them correctly..

[Thaxor]

While such an idea is good on paper, I think it draws the game directly away from what the developers are going for - a situation reminiscent of coal miners who were basically owned by the companies. In game, LYNX has no reason to allow you to become an independent operator, you are solely a reclonable resource for them.

I DO agree about the debt though. What I think would be a better move - which keeps to the intent of the game - is to lower the debt but make things much more expensive. Raise the price on O2 and Fuel. Make maintaining a functional airlock where you can refill your tanks worthwhile because of the cost of O2. Make navigating by hands and grapple worthwhile because of the cost of fuel.

Those 2 things alone will up the tension and decision making in the game if O2 and fuel are say, $1,000,000. You'll no longer just zip back to Jack to gas up. Instead you'll need try to be smart to maximize your profits. Maintain that airlock, move around by your hands - oops airlock has a hole in it. Oops overshot and now heading for the furnace. This change will add consequences to air and fuel usage which currently do not exist.

Random ship condition and more variety on gear I think are completely doable. We are still early access so I'm hopeful we'll get some more ship and gear options. I also love the idea of "rush" jobs or the like, something where there is more of an incentive to work fast (and thus dangerously) but for a bigger payout.

[Stepper]

It's early access...and the debt does have some story elements related to it already. Sure, it feels a bit gimicky at times...but...we've only seen 1/3 of the game, at the absolute most. So we should wait until the game is a bit more fleshed out before we worry about whether or not the debt means anything.

Also, you could literally say that about 3/4 of all game mechanisms. Lol. It's just part of the story of the game. It doesn't mean much to the gameplay, but it's about the story. It's also about giving you a metric for how you're doing, and how far along in the "game" you're getting.

Also, what Thaxor said. It's supposed to be reminiscent of the older days, when miners were beholden to companies, and lived and worked in the mines literally until they died, and usually passed off debt to their families at that point, as well.

Again, we just need to wait until a bit more of the game is released, as this is only supposed to be act 1, in a 3 act game, according to the roadmap...and things may change significantly in act 2 or 3. :)

[traevanon]

The debt sets a goal. That goal wouldnt be there starting at 0. Freedom from debt is a goal many adults can identify with.

Expenses do need to be higher though. its too easy to meet the daily break-even goal as it stands now.

[larry_walsh]

instead of starting the game a billion dollars in debt and working to get yourself out of the hole, I'd instead like to be in business for myself, buy defunct ships and strip them for profit. With your profits you'd buy upgrades for your business like better tools, a bigger bay, and expand to have operations in orbit of other planets.

[watcherzero]

Its a key element of the story, you are an indentured servant trying to achieve freedom. The debt is a way of representing that while also giving you the ability to feel like your making a difference to it.

[Thaxor]

Publicado originalmente por larry_walsh:

instead of starting the game a billion dollars in debt and working to get yourself out of the hole, I'd instead like to be in business for myself, buy defunct ships and strip them for profit. With your profits you'd buy upgrades for your business like better tools, a bigger bay, and expand to have operations in orbit of other planets.

Again, I think this is a great concept but is not what the game is trying to do. Maybe Acts 2 and 3 will put something like this in? But again just seems outside the realm of what they are trying to do with this game. It doesn't make sense for you to start your own business when LYNX is the monolith that it is. They'd just squish you.

Maybe Act 2 or 3 will place you on Mars? Or at other salvage docks that are larger and can accomodate more ships.

[pyrhic]

I understand it's a key element of the story, but that story does absolutely nothing for the game play: it only gives you context of your situation. It's great when game play and story coexist, but if they can't I would rather have game play.

[[UNQL]Tango]

I'd say a debt this big might actually scare away players. The current rate of payback is extremely slow. I, for example don't plan to play that much with this game, because that would mean hundreds of hours of cutting ships. Even if you don't watch tutorials, it takes only a couple of ships to figure out how to salvage this or that. After that it becomes repetitive and boring. Especially without co-op multiplayer.

Since the devs stated the planned length of the game is about 40 hours, I expect the debt can go away much faster than the current rate.

That being said, I'd prefer the OP way as well. I find the 1B debt very lame. Seriously, how can someone get into this much debt??? And EXACTLY 1 billion? It just sounds nonsense.

[Twelvefield]

I was excited about Frontier:Elite, since I played the original game a lot when the original 1980's game was released. One thing that bugged me about that game was that they just gave you a spaceship and off you went. There are trillions of beings stuck on planets and in space stations, yet you get a ship for free. It seemed so wildly improbable. You blow up your ship, you get another one, no questions asked. In the new Elite, there's an "insurance" system and also cloning, but it's at least as goofy as Shipbreaker. In Elite you are essentially immortal, even if you do get curbstomped by griefers a dozen times a day. The only way you can fail is to stop playing.

Now that I am a homeowner in the Real World, I don't get a house for free. I get a mortgage that I have to pay off with interest over my lifetime and possibly beyond. That seems realistic enough to me. I believe you should have to carry a mortgage in Elite.

Funny, though, that it seems strange to have one in Shipbreaker. I guess, like how its mentioned above, the ledger numbers all seem to be pulled out of thin air rather than have any basis in anything tangible. Likely, it's too early in EA to expect balance for the financials, but I also wonder if the devs care about financials at all. I find it hard to tell.

[bz_siege_01]

Publicado originalmente por Twelvefield:

I was excited about Frontier:Elite, since I played the original game a lot when the original 1980's game was released. One thing that bugged me about that game was that they just gave you a spaceship and off you went. There are trillions of beings stuck on planets and in space stations, yet you get a ship for free. It seemed so wildly improbable. You blow up your ship, you get another one, no questions asked. In the new Elite, there's an "insurance" system and also cloning, but it's at least as goofy as Shipbreaker. In Elite you are essentially immortal, even if you do get curbstomped by griefers a dozen times a day. The only way you can fail is to stop playing.

Now that I am a homeowner in the Real World, I don't get a house for free. I get a mortgage that I have to pay off with interest over my lifetime and possibly beyond. That seems realistic enough to me. I believe you should have to carry a mortgage in Elite.

Funny, though, that it seems strange to have one in Shipbreaker. I guess, like how its mentioned above, the ledger numbers all seem to be pulled out of thin air rather than have any basis in anything tangible. Likely, it's too early in EA to expect balance for the financials, but I also wonder if the devs care about financials at all. I find it hard to tell.

First, kudos to another old-school gamer, I spent some scarce cash on a PC and Frontier:Elite was one of my fondest memories. Sunk a lot of hours back in the day.

Second, I agree with with your premise, accruing debt isn't that wild of an idea... homeowners or small business owners will likely relate.

I don't find the debt a huge turnoff, personally. If you want the lore, maybe it's a horribly dystopian socialist nightmare of a future where everyone is just naturally indebted to whatever government there is and a citizen has to strive to break even. Or maybe you inherited your debt because your family made some poor decisions.

Regarding the debt... you have a free play option, you don't really need to let it hang over you if you don't want. Also, if you focus on meeting the goals first, the upgrades make the cash flow much easier. Your daily debts drop when you aren't paying rental on your gear, and as you nibble at the debt, the interest hit goes down as well. Finally, once everything is upgraded, you no longer need to worry about goals any longer, so you just messily tear up ships and fling everything at the receptacles without worrying what's left behind or overlooked. You can hit $9-10million per shift and the debt drops pretty quickly. And it's more fun doing the speed runs, in my opinion.

To each his own, but I didn't find it to be too intimidating. I zeroed one account and my second account is down to $300mill.

[Danikov]

Ironically, most people complaining about it haven't cleared their debt, so it having an effect.

But yes, the debt overall is more thematic and serves the story more than any kind of gameplay. And that's fine, because the Devs are trying to tell a story. You don't have to like it, but it's not like they accidentally portrayed a corporate dystopia. It's quite intended.

And that story is far from finished, so it's difficult to be that critical of it as we have no idea of where it's going. You could make a load of fuss and it turns out all the things you wanted are intended to be end-game.

[valenti_scott]

Hey, I got my debt below 1.15 trillion! It's fun to watch it gradually go down.

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

Publicado originalmente por valenti_scott:

Hey, I got my debt below 1.15 trillion! It's fun to watch it gradually go down.

1.4 TRILLION? The debt is only a Billion! What the heck did you do to rack up those extra fees?

[valenti_scott]

lol, I meant 1.15 billion.

[Destructoid666]

It acually felt great to get bellow the 1 billion mark. Currently closing in on 800 million mark at level 22.