[Not a homophobe.... but paradox maybe]

[Stray952]

Ok so I almost always make my own characters under the 400 point limit. What I’ve noticed is that you’ll pretty consistently get hit with random maladies beyond your control. Utterly terrible court, consumption, random maiming etc. The game, however, rarely stacks these.

After many many play throughs and save scums because of random bout of leprosy or whatever, I’ve come to the conclusion that the game turns you gay as a malady. I’m not saying I consider it a malady, although if I create a character, and I pick their sexuality, I think that choice should be respected.

That being said... anyone else get the vibe that they treat it as a random malady? I mean all it does is rebuff your fertility in a game based on patrilineal inheritance, which is a serious hindrance. But more than that it’s like.... when EVERYTHING else is going right, I start with a good court, rulers around me didn’t randomly decide to wipe me, i just know I’m going to either get consumption or randomly turn homosexual.

It doesn’t bother me much... I just think it’s handled in a weird way. Anyone else notice this?

In before “you’re just projecting” yeah I mean probably a little

[doroboro]

I believe there is a fertility penalty but otherwise you're projecting.

Look up the DD for gender and sexuality if you want their 'actual' take on the system.

[Drachenfire]

I just started this past week, and have my first gay ruler, Found out he was gay like at 16, but he's had mostly positive traits since. He did get married and has 3 daughters and 2 sons, and has gone on 3 pilgrimages and has united Wales, defeated England in 3 wars, and taken the Welsh March.

But I take your point very seriously. Im a gay player and would hate that the gay trait be considered or treated as a malady, or be a gateway to other maladies.

Now, given the time frame, if the gay trait gives them stress which leads to other maladies then thats understandable. That can be corrected by creating a faith that allows acceptance to gay marriage. ((Well, I still havent confirmed if gay marriage is possible... but i hope it is))

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by Drachenfire:

I just started this past week, and have my first gay ruler, Found out he was gay like at 16, but he's had mostly positive traits since. He did get married and has 3 daughters and 2 sons, and has gone on 3 pilgrimages and has united Wales, defeated England in 3 wars, and taken the Welsh March.

But I take your point very seriously. Im a gay player and would hate that the gay trait be considered or treated as a malady, or be a gateway to other maladies.

Now, given the time frame, if the gay trait gives them stress which leads to other maladies then thats understandable. That can be corrected by creating a faith that allows acceptance to gay marriage. ((Well, I still havent confirmed if gay marriage is possible... but i hope it is))

You are aware that this game takes place in the middle ages a.k.a the dark ages ?

The reason this game gives somewhat of a fertility penalty for homosexual player characters is because homosexuals (as we all know) aren't really interested in females which means that the lack of contact with the other gender would be self-explanatory and also explain the lower fertility.

Not sure if I understood this post right, but overall I think that players in general, want to adjust this game too much to the 21. century, which would be wrong as this is a game about the middle ages not our modern and rather free and tolerant times.

History can't be altered. Unfortunately.

[Snake]

Originally posted by BlackCobraFst:

You are aware that this game takes place in the middle ages a.k.a the dark ages ?

The reason this game gives somewhat of a fertility penalty for homosexual player characters is because homosexuals (as we all know) aren't really interested in females which means that the lack of contact with the other gender would be self-explanatory and also explain the lower fertility.

Not sure if I understood this post right, but overall I think that players in general, want to adjust this game too much to the 21. century, which would be wrong as this is a game about the middle ages not our modern and rather free and tolerant times.

History can't be altered. Unfortunately.

I don't know... I made an empire of nudists that sprawled across the entire Mediterranean and neighboring Catholicism was pretty chill about it, so I think it goes off the the history rails in more ways than just 21st century ideals.

Also, real history had a few rulers who drastically changed policy against the church because they wanted to. It's also full of "unhappy diplomatic marriages with zero sexual chemistry that produce heirs". And due to the inheritance mechanics in the game, having a gay ruler with a lower fertility rating and a single heir produced instead of several would actually be benefit because there wouldn't be any succession conflicts.

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by Snake:

Originally posted by BlackCobraFst:

You are aware that this game takes place in the middle ages a.k.a the dark ages ?

The reason this game gives somewhat of a fertility penalty for homosexual player characters is because homosexuals (as we all know) aren't really interested in females which means that the lack of contact with the other gender would be self-explanatory and also explain the lower fertility.

Not sure if I understood this post right, but overall I think that players in general, want to adjust this game too much to the 21. century, which would be wrong as this is a game about the middle ages not our modern and rather free and tolerant times.

History can't be altered. Unfortunately.

I don't know... I made an empire of nudists that sprawled across the entire Mediterranean and neighboring Catholicism was pretty chill about it, so I think it goes off the the history rails in more ways than just 21st century ideals.

Also, real history had a few rulers who drastically changed policy against the church because they wanted to. It's also full of "unhappy diplomatic marriages with zero sexual chemistry that produce heirs". And due to the inheritance mechanics in the game, having a gay ruler with a lower fertility rating and a single heir produced instead of several would actually be benefit because there wouldn't be any succession conflicts.

That's true, the game would be far more restrictive in many ways IF it was more historically accurate.

Was just an assumption anyway. Because I see so many people nowadays trying to " alter history " by pressing their 21st Century views on historic scenarios or games, movies or what not.

and that's true, I personally get a little overwhelmed and annoyed with all the children in this game anyway, sometimes its just too many you have to individual take care of.

[Drachenfire]

Originally posted by BlackCobraFst:

Originally posted by Drachenfire:

I just started this past week, and have my first gay ruler, Found out he was gay like at 16, but he's had mostly positive traits since. He did get married and has 3 daughters and 2 sons, and has gone on 3 pilgrimages and has united Wales, defeated England in 3 wars, and taken the Welsh March.

But I take your point very seriously. Im a gay player and would hate that the gay trait be considered or treated as a malady, or be a gateway to other maladies.

Now, given the time frame, if the gay trait gives them stress which leads to other maladies then thats understandable. That can be corrected by creating a faith that allows acceptance to gay marriage. ((Well, I still havent confirmed if gay marriage is possible... but i hope it is))

You are aware that this game takes place in the middle ages a.k.a the dark ages ?

The reason this game gives somewhat of a fertility penalty for homosexual player characters is because homosexuals (as we all know) aren't really interested in females which means that the lack of contact with the other gender would be self-explanatory and also explain the lower fertility.

Not sure if I understood this post right, but overall I think that players in general, want to adjust this game too much to the 21. century, which would be wrong as this is a game about the middle ages not our modern and rather free and tolerant times.

History can't be altered. Unfortunately.

Well, one of the theories in quantum mechanics holds that for every event or choice in this universe, the opposite event or choice occurred in another mirror universe.

So, with this in mind, in this opposing universe Paradox creates, woman became equal members in Western society thanks to the influence of Gnostic teachings of the universality of the human soul. And the brother-making ceremony of Adelphopoiesis in early Christianity, may lead to a kind of same sex marriage in this alternate universe.

There is no wrong way to play the game, really. its a sandbox. If I wish for a tolerant multi cultural kingdom, and thankfully the tools of the game allow for it, then who is someone else to say otherwise?

Lowered fertility for gays is ok, it reflects less interest in the opposite gender. That's cool. And as I noted before, I'm cool with the idea that being gay and closeted in homophobic societies leads to stress. And stress in CK leads to other negative traits, which I'm cool with, notionally. But the developers graciously and wisely built in a mechanism whereby I can create a society that accepts gay relationships. And relieves the stress of being closeted. That's the path that I'm currently playing towards, anyways.

[Lady Dormouse]

Originally posted by BlackCobraFst:

History can't be altered. Unfortunately.

I don't know about you, but I change history daily. It's basically nigh impossible not to in the game, so why should everything be strictly historical?

Originally posted by Snake:

I don't know... I made an empire of nudists that sprawled across the entire Mediterranean and neighboring Catholicism was pretty chill about it, so I think it goes off the the history rails in more ways than just 21st century ideals.

That is simply awesome!

Originally posted by Drachenfire:

There is no wrong way to play the game, really. its a sandbox. If I wish for a tolerant multi cultural kingdom, and thankfully the tools of the game allow for it, then who is someone else to say otherwise?

Lowered fertility for gays is ok, it reflects less interest in the opposite gender. That's cool. And as I noted before, I'm cool with the idea that being gay and closeted in homophobic societies leads to stress. And stress in CK leads to other negative traits, which I'm cool with, notionally. But the developers graciously and wisely built in a mechanism whereby I can create a society that accepts gay relationships. And relieves the stress of being closeted. That's the path that I'm currently playing towards, anyways.

That's how I play the game too. I've yet to do an Iron Man run b/c I like to mess with things too much via mods and console commands. I also prefer to start with equality in terms of inheritance, which makes it easier to play as a woman.

Oh, and as someone who likes to play as women, the fertility mallus winds up being a bit helpful as I wasn't pregnant constantly in younger years.

I went heavy on seduction as a lesbian which works nicely as there's no chance of pregnancy. And once you are good at seduction, if need be, you can seduce your spouse which seems to end with one having an epic roll in the hay with a high chance of pregnancy.

Not sure if it should be considered a bug or not, but the bonuses from being skilled in seduction makes my male vassals much more loyal, even though I'm a gay woman.

[RodHull]

Its set in the medieval period, if you are playing as virtually any organised western religion then being gay IS a malady (in so much that it is very much a hinderance and a dangerous one at that which can get you killed)

That's not to say the game judges it this way, if you play any of the more enlightened religions your characters can be gay without penalty.

But no PDX most certainly do not consider it a malady themselves they are one of the more forward thinking and inclusive developers around, its just when it happens playing as a say Catholic nation you notice it affect your game more, its just your perception of it.

[CrUsHeR]

Homosexuality does have no direct penalties, fertility or otherwise.

There is an indirect effect, in that you cannot have female lovers or soulmates. You can still seduce them any number of times in order to produce offspring.

And there are some logical combinations, like if your ruler is gay + lustful, he might get stress from rejecting seduction advances from other "sodomites".


BTW if this bothers you so much, you can always disinherit such an heir.

[RodHull]

Originally posted by CrUsHeR:

Homosexuality does have no direct penalties, fertility or otherwiser.

Well it does in so much that it makes you a target for blackmail and or possible excommunication and murder plots in Catholicism (among others) but yes it doesn't have any implicit negative modifiers.

As I said the negative aspects are a function of your religion not the preference itself.

[Azunai]

i don't think you can actually have gay marriages in the game, but you can set homosexual relations to "accepted" when you create your own heretic faith and there may also be some default religions that have that setting.

i think "accepted" in the context of the game mechanics means that characters don't have to hide the trait and therefore you can't uncover it as a secret and use it as a hook against them.

i honestly don't think gay marriage would make sense in the game. rulers got married to produce heirs. i'm sure many ruler couples didn't involve romantic feelings at all and many rulers would have lovers outside the marriage. and while that may not have been officially sanctioned by the church, i guess they could usually get away with it. the same would probably be true for a homosexual monarch. he'd still be expected to have a wife to produce legimitate heirs, but who's going to tell the king that he can't have a male lover?

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by Azunai:

i don't think you can actually have gay marriages in the game, but you can set homosexual relations to "accepted" when you create your own heretic faith and there may also be some default religions that have that setting.

i think "accepted" in the context of the game mechanics means that characters don't have to hide the trait and therefore you can't uncover it as a secret and use it as a hook against them.

i honestly don't think gay marriage would make sense in the game. rulers got married to produce heirs. i'm sure many ruler couples didn't involve romantic feelings at all and many rulers would have lovers outside the marriage. and while that may not have been officially sanctioned by the church, i guess they could usually get away with it. the same would probably be true for a homosexual monarch. he'd still be expected to have a wife to produce legimitate heirs, but who's going to tell the king that he can't have a male lover?

Thing is back then homosexuality was seen as a sin and looked at very critically.

Even if you would be the emperor of an empire, other emperors would look down on you and maybe even try to take you out for being a " sinner " or something along that line.

This was the same in every culture except for ancient times with some Greek and Roman cultures and even there men did not marry but might have had contact with male slaves or servants of some kind.

And who is telling the king he can't have a male lover?

Well, there is the emperor, other kings you might need to rely on and most importantly the church that was more powerful than any king or emperor.

[Azunai]

Originally posted by BlackCobraFst:

...

Thing is back then homosexuality was seen as a sin and looked at very critically.

Even if you would be the emperor of an empire, other emperors would look down on you and maybe even try to take you out for being a " sinner " or something along that line.

This was the same in every culture except for ancient times with some Greek and Roman cultures and even there men did not marry but might have had contact with male slaves or servants of some kind.

And who is telling the king he can't have a male lover?

Well, there is the emperor, other kings you might need to rely on and most importantly the church that was more powerful than any king or emperor.

you realize that the post you quoted was about a reformed faith with accepted homosexuality?

but even within the christian world of real medieval europe, i'm sure there were more than just a few homosexual nobles and kings who got away with it. the people of their own court most definitely knew it. people aren't dumb and people talk. yet i never heard of a king or duke or emperor who was punished by the church for being homosexual. the church needs the nobles just as much as the other way round. you can punish peasants for their sins, but you don't tell the king what he may or may not do in his bedchamber.

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by Azunai:

Originally posted by BlackCobraFst:

...

Thing is back then homosexuality was seen as a sin and looked at very critically.

Even if you would be the emperor of an empire, other emperors would look down on you and maybe even try to take you out for being a " sinner " or something along that line.

This was the same in every culture except for ancient times with some Greek and Roman cultures and even there men did not marry but might have had contact with male slaves or servants of some kind.

And who is telling the king he can't have a male lover?

Well, there is the emperor, other kings you might need to rely on and most importantly the church that was more powerful than any king or emperor.

you realize that the post you quoted was about a reformed faith with accepted homosexuality?

but even within the christian world of real medieval europe, i'm sure there were more than just a few homosexual nobles and kings who got away with it. the people of their own court most definitely knew it. people aren't dumb and people talk. yet i never heard of a king or duke or emperor who was punished by the church for being homosexual. the church needs the nobles just as much as the other way round. you can punish peasants for their sins, but you don't tell the king what he may or may not do in his bedchamber.

There were as many homosexuals as today! But it was always dangerous when a man wanted to live his homosexuality.

And no, nobles were also at risk of getting punished. It's called excommunication and was the end of one's reputation.

However, I think different cultures handled it differently.

[Shiny49]

Originally posted by RodHull:

Originally posted by CrUsHeR:

Homosexuality does have no direct penalties, fertility or otherwiser.

Well it does in so much that it makes you a target for blackmail and or possible excommunication and murder plots in Catholicism (among others) but yes it doesn't have any implicit negative modifiers.

As I said the negative aspects are a function of your religion not the preference itself.

Being a homosexual ruler in ck3 has also its advantages, especially in seduction. Even with the homosexual sucess penalty when seducing women you can easily 95% sucess chance. If you have a really good wife/woman to reproduce with, you can keep her permantly pregnant :D Because you can start seduction after beeing sucessfull again and again, as no affair emerges and therefore you won't get the "end affair" penalty or wrath (depending on her personality) from her.

Personally I think that ck3 is either discrimating every- or no-one, because it depends on the faith you belong to. Also, also historically being engaged and later married as a 6 year old noblesdaughter to some old ruler to reproduce it's the same as a homosexual ruler, who needs to sleep with a woman to get heirs. I think it's solved well with being able to create unhistoric/alternate faiths, no need for modern feminist and LGBT morale stuff in every game, or the next discussing topic will be something like "Why my white ruler is so stupid he didn't notice that he can't be the father of my white wife's black child" or the next one wants the vegan trait. A few days ago we had a topic about some muslim offended by how the islam is portrait in this game...Seems like it's impossible to develope a game nowadays without offending anyone...