Character flaws

[Fendelphi]

Yes, title was kind of a pun, but this is about how character skills, party synergy and assempling of the Round table(the chosen 12 knights) has several flaws.

I will try to give a few examples of this and also provide some suggestions at the bottom. Feel free to add your own perspective.


First some examples of various designs of Vanguard. I will cover other classes later.

Vanguard: Tristan and Boudicea.

Tristan is undead(well, Lost), so he is immune to bleeding and poison. This gives him a unique advantage in combat.
He is also neutral(every morality can use him), but has increased Loyalty through his trait, Allegiance, which makes it easier to reach the +1 AP loyalty goal. Nice.

Tristan focuses on poison and is the only Vanguard with Alchemist, which makes poison effects more effective and cheaper. Beside his unique basic attack, Poison Cut(slightly higher base damage per strike than other Vanguards, potent poison debuff and cost 4 AP), Alchemist also affects every skill that can apply poison(so throwing dagger included if upgraded). In addition, he can also drain life of nearby units, healing himself in the process, and have access to a smoke bomb, which makes anyone in the area immune to ranged attacks for a short while, which limits the amount of enemies that can target him at a time.

This makes him a great duelist in melee and his cheap Throwing Daggers(3 AP instead of 4) makes it easier to debilitate multiple enemies from range prior to engagement, compared to other Vanguards(especially if Inspire with Cooldown reduction is used). To offset this, he does not gain the Assassination skill, and so has less focus on finishing off enemies and stacking kills for damage and AP gain. It does make him great for setting up others for stacking though.


Boudicea has increased movement from traits and is not easy to increase Loyalty on by default, since she is neutral and wont get loyalty bonus from titles(unless you remove her negative trait).
She has access to a unique version of Flurry(each target is hit twice for 50% weapon damage), which works really well with her Unyielding passive skill, which gives her health back per hit. It also makes her great for finishing off multiple enemies, since Flurry can recover 1 AP per kill, and her Assassination skill can also provide +1 AP per kill.
Due to Unyielding, this allows her to dive into groups of enemies and cut them up. She can take some punishment and bounce back better than most Vanguards(Tristan relies on an active skill and cooldown to heal).
On top of that, she has the skill Encouragement, which can buff nearby party members with extra AP, Movement and damage. This is especially potent on turn 1, when you are deployed next to each other.
Her biggest drawback is the difficulty of raising her Loyalty.

Both are great, with some clearly designed strengths and weaknesses.

And now for some poor design.
Vanguard: The rest.
Per se, there is nothing wrong with Sir Balin and Sir Tegyr(the "vanilla" Vanguards). Their kit works. But it is unspecialized. They wont be able to deal with as many enemies at once or generate as much AP as Boudicea, and they are worse duelist and provide less utility than Tristan.
Their main benefit, their morality(and the bonuses it leads to) is also their biggest flaw.
They both have Christian morality, with one being Rightful and the other Tyrant. Meanwhile, there is only 1 with Old Faith and 2 are Neutral. This means, that if you want to play an Old Faith campaign, you only really have an easy time gaining Loyalty with Bedievere if you want a Vanguard, and he does not play like the other 4.


Oh dear, Sir Bedievere. He has an interesting concept. He focuses on Traps and he has the Talented Trait, which means active skills only cost 1 skill point rather than 2. This saves him roughly 4-5 skill points that can be invested elsewhere.
He has several issues though. First off, he has no Jump. He has Sprint. This skill is great for getting from one end to the other, but you use all your currently available AP when doing so. So if you want to get into a good position to use his very positional focused abilities, you have to spend regular movement to do so. Or you have to play defensively and let the enemy come to you.

He is a Vanguard, so he has Assassination, which normally helps finishing off wounded enemies and gives you AP for doing so when upgraded. If it happens on your turn.
Traps triggers(mostly) on the enemy's turn.
And as far as I know, Backstab bonuses and surprise damage bonuses does not work on Traps either, so the Backstab passive skill is also largely pointless if you want to focus on traps. So that is two of his tier 3 skills out.

Now, traps can be quite fun. They can damage and funnel enemies for several turns with the Gas Trap, which is great for when enemies can approach from various, narrow corridors and you want to block one of those entrances. The bear trap is cheap and can debilitate enemies. And the Lightning trap is fairly cheap for the reliability and amount of damage it can do, compared to its AP cost.
But the issue is, it all(mostly) happens on the enemy's turn. Not yours.
By definition, you want to remove as many enemies on your own turn. This is to avoid them using various skills and abilities(like Pull, Stuns, Invulnerable etc.).
The other issue is, you have to predict where an enemy might want to move, place a trap there, and hope that it is as effective as you intended. Not only that, but the trap takes up a tile, which makes it more difficulty for your party members to move around(especially your melee guys).
Basically, he lacks skills that synergizes with his Trap focus. If he had the ability to Taunt enemies or pull or push enemies, he might have been better.
Or if he had kept Jump or Jump attack, you could setup a zone of traps and still deal decent damage from range while luring enemies in.
There are simply other characters that do what he is supposed to do, but better.

Case in point:
Dagonet.
Dagonet is an Arcanist only available to Old Faith Tyrants and focuses on Hexes.
One of his tier 2 abilities is Desecrated Ground. It hits a point(from very long range) and makes a damaging area for 2 turns. This can be upgraded to apply slow and weakness, as well as reduce enemy AP. This is basically a more reliable Gas Trap, making Dagonet excellent in funneling or closing enemies off a side entrance, similar to what Bedievere was supposed to do. Its damage modifier might start smaller, but Dagone have multiple ways of increasing the damage, from scaling with the amount of Hexes he has put on enemies, to Long Range(bonus damage if Disengaged and at least 6 tiles away from the target) and various passives that provide a weapon damage bonus. And he uses a staff, so his base weapon damage is much higher than Bedievere's sword.
And he has access to Force Bolt, which means he can actively force enemies back into his AoE field, if he so desire.

Another example.
Sir Damas.
Damas is a Marksman(Christian Tyrant), so he can pick targets at will from range. He also gets access to the Vanguard Gas Trap, meaning he can close off entrances about as effectively as Bedievere can(and have access to Alchemist passive, so his poisons are cheaper and more effective). In addition, he has various tools for hindering or weakening enemies. Basically, enemies are forced to come to him, but he can dictate very easily how many and how fast. He also regain some AP on kills.




Suggestions concerning Vanguards:
- Change Sir Tegyr's Morality to Old Faith, rightful(to be the opposite of Sir Balin). This allows a bit more variety in terms of available Vanguard picks when going for Old Faith campaign.
- Change Sir Bedievere's Sprint to always cost 3 AP and then provide 6 movement points. This allows him to have the option to reposition somewhat efficiently when using the ability, while still allowing other abilities, like placing traps.
- Remove Bedievere's Backstab skill and give him back Jump attack. Assassination can still help finishing off wounded enemies, but he does currently not have the mobility or incentive to attempt back stabs or even surprise attacks really. Jump Attack will help him focus down single enemies that avoids his traps.
- Remove his Hide(tier 1) skill. Yes, he will be the only Vanguard without Hide. But Sprint can provide Hidden if required. Instead, give him a pull ability(like a whip). It pulls an enemy 3 tiles directly towards you. Targets can trigger opportunity attacks if they move within range. It deals low damage(25%) cost 2 AP with a range of 6 and a cooldown of 1. It can be upgraded with Bleed, deal increased weapon damage(+15%), increased range by 1 and can target 1 additional enemy for an extra 1 AP.
This enhances his trap style and also creates more opportunities for an Overwatch playstyle.

[Багряный]

Tristan has a huge downside as his main hit costs 4 AP and doesn't grant +1 AP on kill, which is the Vanguard's primary advantage. Everything else (daggers or jump attack) doesn't matter. I personally consider vanilla Balin to be the strongest Vanguard.

The basic concept behind the Vanguard is backstab, so the most effective Vanguard is the one with the AP bonuses on kill and the surprise attack and backstab bonuses. Therefore Bedivere>Tristan

Bedivere lacks jumping, as jumping is a very useful tactical skill. Rather, it would be good to add a jump + Sprint, removing bonuses for backstab is not reasonable. Its effectiveness will be greatly reduced. Traps are generally ineffective. Traps are designed for fun, not for effective combat.

I don't think your Bedivere rework recommendations are effective. Without backstab bonuses, he will become weaker. Although not letting him jump is a very strange decision. While Sprint is a fun skill and sometimes extremely useful, in a long fight without jumping, Bedivere loses a lot of AP for stealth movement.

Sir Tegyr has a Justice morale, which makes him different from Tyrant Balin. I'm running my campaign for Justice and the Old Faith, and Sir Tegyr at level 16 has 20 loyalty points. Fairness is enough for it to be effective.

Boudicea's neutrality and inability to give her position bonuses is a huge disadvantage for her. It would be nice to remove this bad trait, since neutral characters increase loyalty points very badly

[KocLobster]

Ive played with most of the vanguards and just simply dont like any of them.

[Багряный]

Originally posted by cookie!:

Ive played with most of the vanguards and just simply dont like any of them.

Probably because the vanguard is strategically and tactically extremely demanding on your game decisions. He cannot absorb damage and must always backstab, and for this you need to think through all your movements

[Fendelphi]

Originally posted by Багряный:

Tristan has a huge downside as his main hit costs 4 AP and doesn't grant +1 AP on kill, which is the Vanguard's primary advantage. Everything else (daggers or jump attack) doesn't matter. I personally consider vanilla Balin to be the strongest Vanguard.

The basic concept behind the Vanguard is backstab, so the most effective Vanguard is the one with the AP bonuses on kill and the surprise attack and backstab bonuses. Therefore Bedivere>Tristan

Bedivere lacks jumping, as jumping is a very useful tactical skill. Rather, it would be good to add a jump + Sprint, removing bonuses for backstab is not reasonable. Its effectiveness will be greatly reduced. Traps are generally ineffective. Traps are designed for fun, not for effective combat.

I don't think your Bedivere rework recommendations are effective. Without backstab bonuses, he will become weaker. Although not letting him jump is a very strange decision. While Sprint is a fun skill and sometimes extremely useful, in a long fight without jumping, Bedivere loses a lot of AP for stealth movement.

Sir Tegyr has a Justice morale, which makes him different from Tyrant Balin. I'm running my campaign for Justice and the Old Faith, and Sir Tegyr at level 16 has 20 loyalty points. Fairness is enough for it to be effective.

Boudicea's neutrality and inability to give her position bonuses is a huge disadvantage for her. It would be nice to remove this bad trait, since neutral characters increase loyalty points very badly

I personally do not think that Vanguards are good to feed kills to. They are great killers, sure, but they do not gain a lot of "extras" by feeding them kills. They get a bit of AP refund, and that is that.
First off, to really shine they need an isolated, decently valuable target that is easy to surprise and backstab. Otherwise the Vanguard gets focused down easily(and only 2 of them have self sustaining abilities).
Great, you took down that one enemy and got a bit of AP back. Now you have to find another target nearby and do the same. Meaning a bunch of the AP you just got have to be spent on movement in most cases.
They generally lack AoE and mobility(because to maximize their damage for the first kill, they have to position for stealth and backstabs), so the amount of kills they will get per turn is actually not that impressive. They can be important kills, but you wont clear the field or stack up much damage from items and effects.
Just as a sidenote: When I say they lack mobility, it is compared to how they engage their enemies, their cooldowns and what they spend their AP on.
Jump gives them a lot of mobility, but you can only use it every other turn or less. They get some free movement points per turn, but going from front to back of an enemy takes 3-4 points. If they want to engage multiple enemies in one turn, they have to spend a lot of AP on movement.

The Vanguard with the greatest potential for clearing multiple enemies, is Boudicea, due to her Flurry(4 AP cost, can hit 3 targets, can gain at least 2 AP per kill, so compared to regular strike, you can GAIN 2 AP, rather than SPENDING 3 AP, for 3 kills, at minimum).
So in a situation where you have to spend minimal AP on movement(the enemy is bunched up on someone), she will profit the most. She will even thrive in situations where she gets partially surrounded, so she also gets the most of good positioning compared to other Vanguards.

Even If they have "gain X damage for 2 turns/until the end of the encounter, for each kill"-items, there are still better classes for that kind of setup.

Arcanist gets extremely dangerous by stacking kills, due to various multi-target or AoE attacks.
Marksman can(depending on which one and/or items) get extremely dangerous by stacking kills.
Both classes can easily target multiple enemies per turn, spending minimal AP on movement, and without putting themselves at risk. That means they can easily get 2-3 kills on the first turn(if not more), to get the snowball rolling.
Champions can get many kills per turn with good positioning and will naturally draw in enemies for that to happen. Their Melee Expertise will generate free attacks and help lower cooldowns, which will keep the AoEs going more often as well as help with survivability.
Even Defenders can get really dangerous if you feed them kills(if they have the items I mentioned), because they have so much mobility, so once they get going, they can easily chain a bunch of kills together.

But the Vanguard relies on positioning and lacks AoE. They do not get cooldown resets. So even if they end up hitting very hard, they often cant reach more than 3 enemies per turn, because most enemies spread out or are already bunching up on a partymember that can kill them more efficiently.
The few abilities that they have which can target multiple enemies is the Gas Trap and Throwing Dagger.


Speaking of Throwing Daggers...
Tristans role is not to be a killer(the one who finishes enemies). His Poison Cut hits harder than standard strikes from Vanguard(80%+various bonuses) and can get reduced to 3 AP with Alchemist. The poison debuff from it is very powerful, as it greatly reduces enemy damage output(-50%) and the enemy cant resist it(unless immune to poison, but that is mostly just the Lost, and you dont bring him in such missions).
And his Throwing Dagger also ends up costing only 3 AP.

So he has a unique role to fill that other Vanguards do not accommodate, and he does it very effectively. Heavy poison debuffs, setting up allies for stacking kills on them and locking down powerful enemies in a duel.
Other Vanguard that relies on stealth and their melee attacks have to spend AP and cooldowns on mobility to get decent damage in, and they NEED those kills to stay somewhat efficient. He will tango with the big bad, while his allies kill the stuff around him(that he has already wounded).

Moving on.

Balin has no advantage over Tegyr. They are exactly the same, except for traits, and there is nothing there that gives Balin an advantage in combat over Tegyr. If you think Sir Balin is the most powerful Vanguard, Sir Tegyr is equally powerful.
I am really interested in hearing why you think this duo is so much better than the others?
How do you use them in a way, that you cant do with any of the others?


About Morality. If you play Tegyr in an Old Faith Rightful campaign, you will end up with a 0 loyalty bonus from your morality choices(as they will cancel each other out, because he is Christian, not Old Faith).
The only way to mitigate this, is with events and titles(and gear). So more or less the same way as a Neutral morality character.
Boudicea can remove her negative trait with a potion/tome(cant remember what it is, but you get a few by the time you get her) and can get the benefit from titles by then. And she can take on Events just like others can from the point you get her.
If you do not intend to use traps(which is the weakest part of the Vanguard skillset in most cases), she is a much stronger Vanguard for "stabbing and killing".


It seems to me that you to want every Vanguard to play the same, which I think is the issue here.
You want Tristan and Bedievere to play the same as Balin(focusing on stealth, jump and backstabs), when they are clearly meant to be used differently.
So I dont agree that Bedievere should simply "do as the others do". I want him to do things differently, just like Tristan and Boudicea does things differently. I want Bedievere to have a different playstyle and that this playstyle can be viable.
Staying back until the enemy is weakened by traps and debuffs, then finishing off a wounded enemy seems more like his intended style. And for that, the Backstab skill is not needed. In fact, without a Jump or redesigned Sprint, he will have a hard time to get to anyones back and stab them. Because if that is how you want to play Vanguard, there are better characters for that.

[Fendelphi]

Originally posted by Багряный:

Originally posted by cookie!:

Ive played with most of the vanguards and just simply dont like any of them.

Probably because the vanguard is strategically and tactically extremely demanding on your game decisions. He cannot absorb damage and must always backstab, and for this you need to think through all your movements

It is hardly that complex.
What it is, is a lot of effort just to keep up with the other classes. Most other classes do not care about backstabs(or can generate them more easily), and can get more kills per turn, without putting themselves at risk.

Vanguards can be fun to use and have their place in terms of tactics and playstyles. Nothing more.

[Багряный]

Originally posted by Fendelphi:

Originally posted by Багряный:

Tristan has a huge downside as his main hit costs 4 AP and doesn't grant +1 AP on kill, which is the Vanguard's primary advantage. Everything else (daggers or jump attack) doesn't matter. I personally consider vanilla Balin to be the strongest Vanguard.

The basic concept behind the Vanguard is backstab, so the most effective Vanguard is the one with the AP bonuses on kill and the surprise attack and backstab bonuses. Therefore Bedivere>Tristan

Bedivere lacks jumping, as jumping is a very useful tactical skill. Rather, it would be good to add a jump + Sprint, removing bonuses for backstab is not reasonable. Its effectiveness will be greatly reduced. Traps are generally ineffective. Traps are designed for fun, not for effective combat.

I don't think your Bedivere rework recommendations are effective. Without backstab bonuses, he will become weaker. Although not letting him jump is a very strange decision. While Sprint is a fun skill and sometimes extremely useful, in a long fight without jumping, Bedivere loses a lot of AP for stealth movement.

Sir Tegyr has a Justice morale, which makes him different from Tyrant Balin. I'm running my campaign for Justice and the Old Faith, and Sir Tegyr at level 16 has 20 loyalty points. Fairness is enough for it to be effective.

Boudicea's neutrality and inability to give her position bonuses is a huge disadvantage for her. It would be nice to remove this bad trait, since neutral characters increase loyalty points very badly

I personally do not think that Vanguards are good to feed kills to. They are great killers, sure, but they do not gain a lot of "extras" by feeding them kills. They get a bit of AP refund, and that is that.
First off, to really shine they need an isolated, decently valuable target that is easy to surprise and backstab. Otherwise the Vanguard gets focused down easily(and only 2 of them have self sustaining abilities).
Great, you took down that one enemy and got a bit of AP back. Now you have to find another target nearby and do the same. Meaning a bunch of the AP you just got have to be spent on movement in most cases.
They generally lack AoE and mobility(because to maximize their damage for the first kill, they have to position for stealth and backstabs), so the amount of kills they will get per turn is actually not that impressive. They can be important kills, but you wont clear the field or stack up much damage from items and effects.
Just as a sidenote: When I say they lack mobility, it is compared to how they engage their enemies, their cooldowns and what they spend their AP on.
Jump gives them a lot of mobility, but you can only use it every other turn or less. They get some free movement points per turn, but going from front to back of an enemy takes 3-4 points. If they want to engage multiple enemies in one turn, they have to spend a lot of AP on movement.

The Vanguard with the greatest potential for clearing multiple enemies, is Boudicea, due to her Flurry(4 AP cost, can hit 3 targets, can gain at least 2 AP per kill, so compared to regular strike, you can GAIN 2 AP, rather than SPENDING 3 AP, for 3 kills, at minimum).
So in a situation where you have to spend minimal AP on movement(the enemy is bunched up on someone), she will profit the most. She will even thrive in situations where she gets partially surrounded, so she also gets the most of good positioning compared to other Vanguards.

Even If they have "gain X damage for 2 turns/until the end of the encounter, for each kill"-items, there are still better classes for that kind of setup.

Arcanist gets extremely dangerous by stacking kills, due to various multi-target or AoE attacks.
Marksman can(depending on which one and/or items) get extremely dangerous by stacking kills.
Both classes can easily target multiple enemies per turn, spending minimal AP on movement, and without putting themselves at risk. That means they can easily get 2-3 kills on the first turn(if not more), to get the snowball rolling.
Champions can get many kills per turn with good positioning and will naturally draw in enemies for that to happen. Their Melee Expertise will generate free attacks and help lower cooldowns, which will keep the AoEs going more often as well as help with survivability.
Even Defenders can get really dangerous if you feed them kills(if they have the items I mentioned), because they have so much mobility, so once they get going, they can easily chain a bunch of kills together.

But the Vanguard relies on positioning and lacks AoE. They do not get cooldown resets. So even if they end up hitting very hard, they often cant reach more than 3 enemies per turn, because most enemies spread out or are already bunching up on a partymember that can kill them more efficiently.
The few abilities that they have which can target multiple enemies is the Gas Trap and Throwing Dagger.


Speaking of Throwing Daggers...
Tristans role is not to be a killer(the one who finishes enemies). His Poison Cut hits harder than standard strikes from Vanguard(80%+various bonuses) and can get reduced to 3 AP with Alchemist. The poison debuff from it is very powerful, as it greatly reduces enemy damage output(-50%) and the enemy cant resist it(unless immune to poison, but that is mostly just the Lost, and you dont bring him in such missions).
And his Throwing Dagger also ends up costing only 3 AP.

So he has a unique role to fill that other Vanguards do not accommodate, and he does it very effectively. Heavy poison debuffs, setting up allies for stacking kills on them and locking down powerful enemies in a duel.
Other Vanguard that relies on stealth and their melee attacks have to spend AP and cooldowns on mobility to get decent damage in, and they NEED those kills to stay somewhat efficient. He will tango with the big bad, while his allies kill the stuff around him(that he has already wounded).

Moving on.

Balin has no advantage over Tegyr. They are exactly the same, except for traits, and there is nothing there that gives Balin an advantage in combat over Tegyr. If you think Sir Balin is the most powerful Vanguard, Sir Tegyr is equally powerful.
I am really interested in hearing why you think this duo is so much better than the others?
How do you use them in a way, that you cant do with any of the others?


About Morality. If you play Tegyr in an Old Faith Rightful campaign, you will end up with a 0 loyalty bonus from your morality choices(as they will cancel each other out, because he is Christian, not Old Faith).
The only way to mitigate this, is with events and titles(and gear). So more or less the same way as a Neutral morality character.
Boudicea can remove her negative trait with a potion/tome(cant remember what it is, but you get a few by the time you get her) and can get the benefit from titles by then. And she can take on Events just like others can from the point you get her.
If you do not intend to use traps(which is the weakest part of the Vanguard skillset in most cases), she is a much stronger Vanguard for "stabbing and killing".


It seems to me that you to want every Vanguard to play the same, which I think is the issue here.
You want Tristan and Bedievere to play the same as Balin(focusing on stealth, jump and backstabs), when they are clearly meant to be used differently.
So I dont agree that Bedievere should simply "do as the others do". I want him to do things differently, just like Tristan and Boudicea does things differently. I want Bedievere to have a different playstyle and that this playstyle can be viable.
Staying back until the enemy is weakened by traps and debuffs, then finishing off a wounded enemy seems more like his intended style. And for that, the Backstab skill is not needed. In fact, without a Jump or redesigned Sprint, he will have a hard time to get to anyones back and stab them. Because if that is how you want to play Vanguard, there are better characters for that.

I have a feeling that you do not quite understand the potential of the Vanguard. Yes, I agree that Balin and Tegyr are the same, it's just that Balin joins earlier and has useful traits.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2900954615

Let's see the possibilities and potential of Balin or Tegyr. Their standard hit costs 3 AP, hit kill trait gives +1 AP, kill trait gives +1 AP, challenge potion gives +1 AP (unfortunately you will kill 2000 enemies at the end of the game), +1 AP you get for killing from some items.

You spend 3 AP per hit and gain a minimum of 2 AP or a maximum of 4-5 AP.

Further, it is very important for the vanguard and the champion to take items for bonuses to movement points consumption + 33% of items. Typically, you will give 2 of these items and you will have a +66% bonus from items to movement cost.

Jump and Stealth give additional movement points, the cost of which will be reduced by 33% or 66%, this allows you to do 3 or 5 moves for 2 points of movement, which is a lot.

It's also very important to give double damage items to a vanguard or champion. As a result, you will deal at least 150+ damage. Vanguard Endgame has a very strong item that gives you an additional chance to hit, as a result of which you can destroy any opponent very quickly in a few turns.

In addition, after the kill, you can always go into stealth and protect yourself. What would the next turn to commit new murders. And at a critical moment, use potions + 50% or 100% AP

Therefore, Balin or Tegyr are the best.

I repeat I'm playing Tegyr in the Old Faith Rightful campaign and he has 20 Loyalty at level 16. Rightful fully compensates the fines of Christianity. In addition, it is logical that you will not be able to use all the knights. There are 2 neutral vanguards Tristan and Boudicea, Old Faith Bedivere, Christian Rightful Tegyr and Christian Tiran Balin. Therefore, in any scenario, you will have at least 3 vanguards.

I repeat, traps are designed for fun, not efficiency. I only agree that Bedivere should not have removed the jump. In Endgame, you will not have time to set traps due to the Spiers that will summon whirlwinds. Sprinting is perfect for destroying the Spire, as they tend to be hidden very deep behind enemy lines. Because of what you can destroy it on turn 2.

The essence of the avant-garde is that you deal huge damage from stealth behind enemy lines and go back to stealth mode. One mistake and your vanguard will probably die. Therefore, for inexperienced players, the vanguard is a bad choice, they will either kill it or get a lot of injuries. For an experienced player, the vanguard is a character that will finish the battle in 2-3 turns.

[Fendelphi]

See, the immediate issue here is that you use challenge potions and specific(not guaranteed) items to make a character better. Probably also getting extra skill points.
But the same can be done with any character.
However, it is the base character you have to look at.
Balin's traits does not make him better in combat. Tegyr also gains increased loyalty. By level 20(actually, much sooner than that), they are both equals, if your morality fits their preference.


Boudicea deals more, unconditional damage with her basic strike attacks(she does not deal more damage to bleeding targets, but has two +15% modifier instead of just one). The Strike also cost 3 AP(same as Balin), and with the Challenge AP potion, she can get 3 AP back per kill, just like Balin with the same setup.
The point is, she does not need to hit a bleeding target to get the most damage out. So she is immediately more effective against, for example, The Lost, while also hitting harder against "fresh" and full health enemies.

Not only that, but she has Flurry, which can kill 3 enemies for 4 AP, returning 3 AP per kill with the Challenge potion(meaning a total of 9 AP gained from 4 AP), where 3 normal strikes(a total of 9 AP gained for 9 AP cost) will just mean that you have spent 0 in total. So she can be way more efficient with her AP in the right situations.
Her trait gives her an extra +1 movement.

So if we use your playstyle with Boudicea, she has more movement, hits harder and can regain more AP. And that is before counting items. Those things just makes her even stronger.

As for damage. I can deal 150+ damage with Mordred's Chain Lightning(hitting multiple targets), if I set it up properly. Champions can use Earth Shaker to hit and kill multiple opponents(and with Rage and Challenge potion, get a bunch of AP back).
Arcanist can go insane with AoE effects and can target enemies from long range.
They gain a lot of benefits by feeding kills to them. Vanguards do not, as they do not have nearly as much scaling or ways to use that extra damage potential. They have to work harder for a similar result. And if you put the same effort into other classes, they will do even better.


As for Loyalty. If you have 18 Rightful and 18 Old-Faith, then Tegyr will get exactly a total of 0 loyalty bonus from you.
That is because you get half the value as either a penalty or bonus.
He likes you being Rightful, so he gets +9 Loyalty. He dislikes your Old-Faith, so he gets -9 from it. A total gain of 0. Same as if he had been neutral.
If he gets to 20 Loyalty, it is because of other factors. It could be items, titles, his innate bonus of +3, events and Laws.


Traps are only "for fun" because there currently are no efficient way of using them. They scale poorly and do not synergize with the Vanguard skill set. Which is why the best character to use traps currently is Damas, a Marksman, or even Dagonet, and Arcanist, who can kind of emulate the Gas Trap with his Desecrated Ground.

Bedievere's Lightning Trap is the most consistent and reliable trap for him, but investing heavily into traps makes him overall weaker. He can always just run up and hit someone with a sword, but by investing into traps, his specialty, he wont see spectacular results.
That is what I want to change. Give Bedievere some skills that allows him to use his various traps more effectively and on his own terms, rather than having to rely on enemies.

Example: One of his upgrades to the Lightning Trap is called "Forked lightning". It makes the trigger range 1 tile larger, but increases AP cost by 1. "Forked Lightning" would suggest that if multiple enemies are within the trigger zone, they would all be hit(as that is usually what "Forked Lightning" means). It does not. It just increases the trigger range by 1, meaning it is slightly more reliable, but also cost 1 more AP and still only hits 1 enemy.
Traps should be both fun and good to use, with interesting combos.

As for stealth and dealing with enemy backline. Most Arcanists and Marksmen can do it. Especially Merlin, the Fairy Knight and even Guinevere can do it, as they all have teleport and means to disable enemies and protect themselves.
Teleport has a much farther range than Jump and can stealth, meaning you only spend 1 AP instead of 2-3.
Those three are all also more durable and can easier control the backline/block off reinforcements.
- Merlin has various cheap control effects and debuffs to make sure he takes as little damage as possible. He also has his Magical Armor, which most often allows him to absorb 2 hits. If he cast enough spells he can reset his teleport.
- The Fairly Knight is bascially just a better Vanguard in many cases. Ice Shield means far less risk of taking damage. Magical Armor means that even if he does get hit, it is mitigated most of the time. He can get a lot of Dodge. Melee Expert grants him free kills, and he still has powerful ranged options.
- Guinevere can take out/disable powerful foes and block off reinforcements with Ice Wall. She gains AP whenever an enemy dies by any means. So you can feed kills to your Champion or other characters, and she will get more AP to work with.

[Багряный]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2921297388
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2921297363

Look at the screenshot and think what is your mistake?

Mordred will spend 5 AP to strike with chain lightning and deal about 150-200 damage. Balin will spend 3 AP to deal 150-300 damage and get 2-5 AP in return, so in 1 turn Balin can destroy the entire map in battle.

Flurry is a very weak skill, it rarely works well.

Boudicea's problem is that she has a neutral alignment and doesn't have a position bonus.

[Fendelphi]

Originally posted by Багряный:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2921297388
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2921297363

Look at the screenshot and think what is your mistake?

Mordred will spend 5 AP to strike with chain lightning and deal about 150-200 damage. Balin will spend 3 AP to deal 150-300 damage and get 2-5 AP in return, so in 1 turn Balin can destroy the entire map in battle.

Flurry is a very weak skill, it rarely works well.

Boudicea's problem is that she has a neutral alignment and doesn't have a position bonus.

So you have just proven my point. What about the screenshot that shows the negative loyalty of Tegyr for being Christian in an Old-Faith playthrough? It should show a -9 in your case, since you have 18 Old-Faith points.
What your screenshot shows is that Tegyr can get to 20 loyalty at level 17, even when his loyalty bonus from morality is a total of 0.
Which also means that any neutral character(0 loyalty bonus from morality) can get to 16 or 17 loyalty before hitting end game.


Assuming you build and play him right, Mordred can get 4-5 kills for free(spend 1 AP, get 1 AP back) with Shield Charge, then use Chain Lightning(hitting 4, killing 4), meaning after 8-9 kills, he has actually only spent 1 AP. This gives him a large buffer for additional positioning or extra attacks(His Strikes can also be free, if you give him AP essence and he is able to 1-shot his targets).

You cant get constant 5 AP back on kills on Balin, because items will only grant AP on the first kill per turn. So your first kill with Strike might generate 5 AP(assuming you have 2 items that grants AP on kill), but every subsequent kill that turn will "only" generate 3(1 from Assassination, 1 from Essence, 1 from Strike).
Which means that to get 8 kills on turn 1, you will have to move around a lot, and you simply do not have enough movement for that, if your items also have to grant AP gain on kills, damage scaling on kills and better movement(that is like 3 different configurations), and still have 3 AP left to activate Strike, using Jump(1 AP, no regain) and Hide(1 AP, no regain).

Boidicea's Flurry is unique because it strike twice on each enemy. This allows it to trigger backstab or surprise bonus damage twice for each enemy. It also means that every scaling bonus you get from items is used twice on each enemy.
This increases the odds of getting an enemy below 40% vitality on the first strike, which for the second strike activates Assassintion passive damage boost.

If you Jump+Hide behind a group of enemies currently engaging your Tank, you can easily get 3 kills. With Flurry, AP Essence and Assassination alone(no AP items), this can generate 9 AP. So even if you spend 1 AP on Jump, 1 AP on Hide and 2 AP on movement, and the activation cost of Flurry(4), you still end up with 1 more AP than you started with.

If we take your Balin and try the same, it will go like this: 1 AP to Jump. 1 AP to Hide. 2 AP to move. Spend 3 AP to kill 1 enemy, get 5 AP back(because AP items). Spend 3 AP on 2nd kill, get 3 AP back. Spend 3 AP on 3rd kill, get 3 AP back. In total, you have less AP than when you started.
And since your 2nd and 3rd strike wont get Surprise damage bonus(it goes away after the first strike), it becomes that much harder to secure those kills.


The core benefit to Balin and Tegyr is that if they fit your morality, they require less investment, so even with lower max potential, they are easy to use.
The other benefit is that they are more versatile compared to those specialized Vanguards. They have jumps, traps and Assassination, while the others lack 1 of them because to their specialty.
But if you are never going to use traps, Boudicea(who has no traps) is the stronger pick. She can get to 16 Loyalty if you want to, she has better movement, higher damage and AP potential. She just lacks the option of traps.

[Багряный]

Mordred does not have the ability to kill many opponents. At best, he can finish off wounded opponents. Defender is a very weak class and on the highest difficulty it is not relevant and cannot be useful. As a result, having completed the game on the highest difficulty, I came to the conclusion that the most powerful and persistent tank in the game is the Faerie Knight, he is the only one who is able to survive in the thick of the battle on the highest difficulty.

It is very difficult for Boidicea to get 20 morale, for this she must be sent to all tasks where she can gain loyalty and it is not a fact that she will be able to gain 20 loyalty there. Stealth>Strike>Stealth. The tactics are simple and effective. The other doesn't work. If you're using Flurry as your primary hit, then you're not playing on the hardest difficulty, which means you're looking at the mechanics as fun rather than tactical and strategic superiority in the game.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2921951458

The mission at level 19-20 against the Red Knight on the hardest difficulty just proves the superiority of the vanguard and the Stealth>Strike>Stealth tactics. Enemy knights have 300 life and 12 armor, deal massive damage. If you send Boidicea with Flurry, you will simply die in 4 hits from the enemy.

[Fendelphi]

Originally posted by Багряный:

Mordred does not have the ability to kill many opponents. At best, he can finish off wounded opponents. Defender is a very weak class and on the highest difficulty it is not relevant and cannot be useful. As a result, having completed the game on the highest difficulty, I came to the conclusion that the most powerful and persistent tank in the game is the Faerie Knight, he is the only one who is able to survive in the thick of the battle on the highest difficulty.

It is very difficult for Boidicea to get 20 morale, for this she must be sent to all tasks where she can gain loyalty and it is not a fact that she will be able to gain 20 loyalty there. Stealth>Strike>Stealth. The tactics are simple and effective. The other doesn't work. If you're using Flurry as your primary hit, then you're not playing on the hardest difficulty, which means you're looking at the mechanics as fun rather than tactical and strategic superiority in the game.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2921951458

The mission at level 19-20 against the Red Knight on the hardest difficulty just proves the superiority of the vanguard and the Stealth>Strike>Stealth tactics. Enemy knights have 300 life and 12 armor, deal massive damage. If you send Boidicea with Flurry, you will simply die in 4 hits from the enemy.

And yet I am regularly killing 5-6 enemies with Mordred in a single turn. It does require that you set it up, but the result is that he can clear enemies easily the next 2 turns, as they suicide on him.
Damage increase from items("+X damage for 2 turns on kill") also improves reflect damage, so getting 5-6 kills means that every time they attack you in melee, they take a lot of damage in return(if you have an item that causes Reflect). If they are killed by the reflect damage, it increases his damage further, meaning even more reflect damage and him hitting harder on his next turn, which leads to more kills and so on.
I have had the Chain Lightning hit something like 1300% weapon damage this way.


Yes, characters with Ice Shield are the best at absorbing unwanted powerful hits. When combined with Dodge and Magical Armour, it makes Fairy Knight very tough.
I would not necessarily call him the best tank though. Shield has limited hits it can absorb and a fairly long cooldown. Dodge only works "some of the time", so you can not rely on it.
Magical Armor only lets you pretend to be a Defender for 2 hits(at best).
So Fairy Knight can take a few hits no problem, but sustained damage is a different matter.
And you will have to invest a lot of points into defensive skills to make it work, meaning less points in damage skills.


Boudicea only needs 16 Loyalty to get the full benefit(+20% damage, +1 AP). With the potion to remove negative traits, she can get a title as well(Royal Protector gives +3).
Which means she really only need to personally complete 7 or so Events.
There are also events that increases the loyalty of all your Knights(no matter their morality) as well as equipment. It is not difficult to reach 16 Loyalty, if you want to.
The only "issue" is, that she becomes available in act 3, and you might already have a Vanguard that you have invested in and dont want to get rid of.
But if you intend to use her for the end game stuff, she can get to 16 Loyalty, no problem.


You cant stealth while inside the detection area of an enemy, so when you say "stealth, strike, stealth" do you mean that you stealth, move up to an enemy, strike them, then move away and repeat this over and over?
Boudicea can still use regular strikes if you feel that works better, so she can use that tactic as well. She even hits harder with it compared to Tegyr and Balin, because she can get two +15% damage upgrades for it, instead of just one.
And she has more movement speed, so it is easier to do.
Flurry is an option for when enemies have grouped up. Meaning if you, as the player, can make enemies group up, you can gain value from it. Or if they do so on their own, you can gain value from it. It is not a requirement to make the character work, but a situation that the character can exploit in a way that other Vanguards cant.