Best Heroes, and party composition

[madocs]

I am level 9 in my current run.

Ignoring morality and religion,
Which heroes are the best? You put a lot of effort into the early knights, but wonder if you should focus on certain ones more. Will they be replaced later?

I read something that said the heroes gained later in the game are better than the ones gained earlier. Is that Correct?

And it leads me to my next question: How do people like to run their parties? Which is the most fun, or the most OP?

I run with:
1) Mordred or a Sage or a champion
2) Champion
3) Vanguard (or marksman)
4) Arcanist (If sage replaces Mordred, I was then thinking of using another #3)

What are your thoughts on composition?
Especially with thoughts towards end game?

I am trying to figure out who to kill and who to leave in my party, and who I should focus on.

(I have gone christian rightful, but made Merlin rightful instead of old faith in editing the heroes config... mainly because I like the arcanist class)

[Tom Cormie]

Originally posted by Feremir:

Originally posted by kbiz:

Champions are the most powerful class. And Kay is the most powerful champion.

Sir Kay is usefull at early game because he got the cleave skill early on,aside from that he doesn't bring anything speacial or unique as a character;after you get the other knights there is no reason to use him.
There is also another problem,he´s a neutral character,meaning it will be hard to level up his loyalty so you'll miss the 20% damage + extra ap later on the game.

I used to think the same thing, but after following kbiz's guidance, I realized that Sir Kay is really the strongest. Around level 5-6 he already has maximum loyalty, (Royal protector, and events) and with the teleport ring (+5 loyality) he also has mobility. And only the white knight can compete with its damage, which is given by the rage skill.

[Zorborg]

Mordred (warlock/defender)
Galahad (tank/defender)
Kay (champion)
Ector (arcanist)

Though my first playthrough was completed on hard with Dindrane (archer) instead of Kay.

[LastMinit]

I use two Defenders in endgame on hard, sometimes three. In campaign I used them mostly for mobility and AP efficiency but now, as every enemy in endgame is tanky af, I use them more for their sheer abilty to take a beating.

I also use a Marksman in late game and end game, as I did find some good dmg gear. I find them better for ranged single target focus than arcanists, also more survivable given their mobility. I wouldn't say no to a 3ap shoot but I don't know if they need hide. It's easy enough to keep them out of range, and I'm leveling up Damas atm, who has the low profile passive on his tree. Seems like a skill made for Marksmen.

[madocs]

Nice comments guys!
Zorborg, what do you do for perception with that team?
What levels of perception and spellcraft are needed in the game anyway, and do you need a specific class just for that?

[Ancient Toaster]

Originally posted by kbiz:

Originally posted by madocs:

Otherwise sounds like mordred, Lancelot (champion) ,Tegyr (vanguard) ,Balin (vanguard) ,Guinevere (sage) and Morgana (arcanist).

No. Kay, Morgana, Isolde, and Guinevere. Hear me now, believe me later.

Champions are the most powerful class. And Kay is the most powerful champion.

Yes, there is one on this forum that uses two (2) defenders late game. Maybe he will see this thread.

Please explain how Kay is better than Lancelot and Black Knight

[kbiz]

Originally posted by AncientToaster:

Please explain how Kay is better than Lancelot and Black Knight

What's the difference between Lancelot and all the other champions? Rage.

What's the difference between Kay and the Black Knight? Kick and Death Strike.

In order for a champion to rampage, you need Rage. But you also would like Killing Spree and the +1 AP per kill challenge potion. And a +2 movement AP per kill item and a teleport ring. And it's preferable to wait a turn if you have Melee Expertise. Ironically, Juggernaut is not needed, but it's nice.

First, you need to jumpstart your damage output. You do that by killing 2 or more enemies with an AoE skill like Earth Shaker. The easiest way to do that is to teleport to the best spot on the battlefield. With Rage and 2 or more kills you should be able to one-shot the weaker enemies on the battlefield. This is your rampage starting point.

At the start of the rampage, you want the most AP possible. And you want to kill the most enemies for the fewest AP possible. With Kick and Killing Spree, you can kill two enemies for 1 AP. That means you can rampage further with Kay.

At earlier levels, you must maneuver you way around the battlefield allowing your damage output to increase by killing weaker enemies and working your way towards the strongest enemies.

With Kay, you can have full loyalty and the teleport ring by level 5, Armorer by level 6, Kick by level 8, and Killing Spree by party level 12.

Kay can rampage further and earlier than other champions. Kay can do the most damage with Death Strike. Kay will have the most skills. Kay will let you get Morgana.

Kay get angry. Kay smash! Kay kick!

Kay is da man!

[kbiz]

Originally posted by Tom Cormie:

I used to think the same thing, but after following kbiz's guidance, I realized that Sir Kay is really the strongest. Around level 5-6 he already has maximum loyalty, (Royal protector, and events) and with the teleport ring (+5 loyality) he also has mobility. And only the white knight can compete with its damage, which is given by the rage skill.

Well said. Thank you.

[madocs]

Kbiz You are a champion yourself.... lol good explanation on Kay!

Has anyone run any interesting / different combinations on runs, like all arcanists, or all vanguards or all marksman (don't shoot me) lol

[kbiz]

Originally posted by madocs:

Kbiz You are a champion yourself.... lol good explanation on Kay!

Has anyone run any interesting / different combinations on runs, like all arcanists, or all vanguards or all marksman (don't shoot me) lol

Thank you. Smart people play this game. Funny people too. And I like that there are people from all over the world here.

Oh, a person from Australia who likes Solasta, Pathfinder, and Age of Wonders III and prefers not to play as a tyrant. I liked you immediately. But. It. Makes. It. Hard. For. Me. To. Stay. On-topic.

By the way, when you cheese it, you can get Kay's damage output up to 45,000.

All female: Boudicea, Morgana, Isolde, Guinevere.

[Avataristche]

My go-to setup is Mordred-vanguard (Balin, then Boadicea)-Isolde-Morgawse.
Basically cc everything while vanguard clears clustered groups.
I am playing on hard roguelite, and i havent lost more than a third of hp (on anyone) on a mission since act2. Finished act3 boss without taking any damage at all actually ^^

Why those 4?
Mordred has ranged stun, "ranged" knockdown, and can reliably tank trash (also Shock at t3)
Vanguards still dish tons of damage (with Bless), do not require feeding em kills and can avoid getting hit while doing so. Boadicea is the best imo because traps are irrelevant (and she can get 3 ap per kill).
Isolde has melee freeze, ranged freeze, all sage buffs and temphp buff to help tank a random arrow if needed
Morgawse has melee freeze, ranged stun and ice shield to tank bosses/stuns/freezes (and also Shock at t3)

[Minoris]

My expectations were low (because Steam forums) but damn did this thread deliver. Learned quite a lot. Also glad to see that my initial idea to go Righteous/Old Faith is not a bad one, lol. That would have been annoying.

Thanks for the tips everyone! (Particularly kbiz, apparently! Until proven wrong I'll keep that meta in mind!)

[Ancient Toaster]

Originally posted by kbiz:

Originally posted by AncientToaster:

Please explain how Kay is better than Lancelot and Black Knight

What's the difference between Lancelot and all the other champions? Rage.

What's the difference between Kay and the Black Knight? Kick and Death Strike.

In order for a champion to rampage, you need Rage. But you also would like Killing Spree and the +1 AP per kill challenge potion. And a +2 movement AP per kill item and a teleport ring. And it's preferable to wait a turn if you have Melee Expertise. Ironically, Juggernaut is not needed, but it's nice.

First, you need to jumpstart your damage output. You do that by killing 2 or more enemies with an AoE skill like Earth Shaker. The easiest way to do that is to teleport to the best spot on the battlefield. With Rage and 2 or more kills you should be able to one-shot the weaker enemies on the battlefield. This is your rampage starting point.

At the start of the rampage, you want the most AP possible. And you want to kill the most enemies for the fewest AP possible. With Kick and Killing Spree, you can kill two enemies for 1 AP. That means you can rampage further with Kay.

At earlier levels, you must maneuver you way around the battlefield allowing your damage output to increase by killing weaker enemies and working your way towards the strongest enemies.

With Kay, you can have full loyalty and the teleport ring by level 5, Armorer by level 6, Kick by level 8, and Killing Spree by party level 12.

Kay can rampage further and earlier than other champions. Kay can do the most damage with Death Strike. Kay will have the most skills. Kay will let you get Morgana.

Kay get angry. Kay smash! Kay kick!

Kay is da man!

How the hell are you getting max loyalty with him at level 5? I use this dude every single mission and he's assigned to a Court seat and his Loyalty isn't even to the 2nd tier. Also, Teleport ring? What? Where?

[kbiz]

Originally posted by AncientToaster:

How the hell are you getting max loyalty with him at level 5? I use this dude every single mission and he's assigned to a Court seat and his Loyalty isn't even to the 2nd tier. Also, Teleport ring? What? Where?

I know, trust but verify. Like this:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2819187796

Tom Cormie said it right. There is an event very early where you can give +3 loyalty to Kay instead of giving +1 loyalty to everyone. Then the ring. Then the title. Then there is one other +2 thing I forget. But you'll find it.

[kbiz]

Originally posted by AncientToaster:

Also, Teleport ring? What? Where?

WTF, right? Okay, let's talk about the Merchant and Enchanted Tower.

I invest heavily early in increasing the item quality, quantity, and restocking rate at both the Merchant and Enchanted Tower. Unless you scum-save, it's always better to have more looks at more items and more relics. I get Ancient Method at the Enchanted Tower early too.

As I mentioned before, teleport rings are available at the Enchanted Tower. You will have to sacrifice four relics (maybe all your relics at level 5) to get a teleport ring at the Enchanted Tower. You can also buy a relic at the Merchant and sacrifice it to help get the ring. If you reconstruct the Enchanted Tower as soon as possible (after the Merchant and Training Ground), then I believe it will restock items right around level 5-6. That will give you two attempts to get the ring early. Otherwise, you gotta wait 3-4 missions. But the ring appears frequently. In fact, you can pick up two rings normally (if you want) by Act III.

The teleport ring is one of the best items in the game. At level 6, Kay will have 9 AP. That's a teleport and two backstabs on a lieutenant or a teleport and an Earth Shaker for 2-3 kills. No, Kay is not da man yet. Don't expect him to perform miracles. As a side note, a good rampage is an art - where to start and how to do it takes practice.

The item to look out for at the Merchant is the Vagabond Ring. It gives +2 AP and will last the entire game. It works well on Merlin. And everyone else.

Also look out for the Sigil of the Shield and Bodhmall's Hexmark. Both great armors. Not sure where they are though.

It's valuable to time the restocking of both buildings with the end of Act II. Even if you have to skip a side mission and fight the Fisher King earlier, it's better. It's nice to equip your characters with level 10 items immediately.

Buy all Tomes of Experience and Tomes of Proficiency. When the party reaches level 12, read 1-2 tomes giving Kay Killing Spree. By the way, give all extra skill points to Kay - at least until level 12.

Once Kay has Killing Spree, it's rampage time. The only thing remaining will be the challenge potion. Then it's game over.

[Tom Cormie]

My favourite party

ACT 1: Mordred, Kay, Balin, Dindraine
ACT 2: Mordred, Kay, Guinevere, Merlin
ACT 3-4: Mordred, Kay, Guinevere, Boudicea

I always use all slots in the training ground. If someone from the A team is missing due to an event, there must be a replacement. (Balin, Merlin, Lancelot, Dindraine)

This is how I usually start the battle:

Boudicea: Encouragement +1 AP, +2 MP, +20% damage
Guinevere: Inspire + 2 AP, +1 MP
Guinevere: Bless to Kay or his deputy +1 AP, +30% damage
Mordred: Stigma + Shield bash + Strike
Boudicea: Jump + 2-3 backstab + Hide
Kay: Teleport + Backstab + Chain kill :)
Guinevere: Teleport + Backstab/Freezing

Often there is no 2nd round.