Vanguard & Sage Help

[PDX MM]

So I am looking for some advice on how to best use these two classes. Up to this point (main party is lvl 10) I have had 2 knights die and both have been vanguards. I almost lost a 3rd who was a quest follower NPC. It seems to ever fail that once they get in melee range they become the #1 target of the enemy.

I have had the same problem with the sage. Maybe I am missing something but other than inspire and bless they don't bring anything else to the fight. Maybe that changes with the tier 3 abilities. In both cases having a tank that can taunt I feel is the way to go but that means benching Mordred unless I have to bring him. Is there something else I am missing that makes these classes shine?

[Zaris]

Vanguard: skill on max hide, jump, ignore opportunity attacks, max backstab / surprise / duel dmg and on equip more ap / movement ap / duel / surprise dmg.

In fight jump to next enemy, hide, backstab, hide, go to next enemy and repeat and end the turn hidden (count your ap) and out of the way of enemies (they run to the next visible hero). This way you can oneshot 4-5 enemies later on with skills/equip. You should never get hit that's why you can equip complete offensive equip.

Sage: is squishy like the arcanist and like you recognized only good for buffs. Let him stay in the back row. Later on you can equip quite good armor values with 100% armor dmg reduce items / skills so he can endure some hits. Otherwise use him only to buff (bless 30% dmg) the Vanguard at the start of second round (when the Vanguard is most likely in the best position to start backstabbing) or on the champion.

[✪Ren]

I personally can't stand Vanguards (I believe its how Assassin's called) - garbage with useless traps, poisons and weak attacks (I know I know they can solo exterminate the whole encounters with +AP equipment and abilities later but ♥♥♥♥ those glitches).
But Sage...I started using Genevre after I got bored of Lady Marksman, and I can say pretty obvious and simple things how to play her.

Teleport behind the back of enemy, froze/stab to death one enemy, buff party for +2 AP, enable shield (whatever it is), prepare to facehit while other knights rush their targets. On 2nd turn, if you are using buff with +2 AP what also recharges all abilities for the whole party for -1 turn, you can insta teleport again either if you got hit badly behind the front or behind another enemies back and keep doing your job.

Also Sage has super useful 3rd tier abilities, like almost all of them.

[Njall]

Originally posted by PDX MM:

So I am looking for some advice on how to best use these two classes. Up to this point (main party is lvl 10) I have had 2 knights die and both have been vanguards. I almost lost a 3rd who was a quest follower NPC. It seems to ever fail that once they get in melee range they become the #1 target of the enemy.

I have had the same problem with the sage. Maybe I am missing something but other than inspire and bless they don't bring anything else to the fight. Maybe that changes with the tier 3 abilities. In both cases having a tank that can taunt I feel is the way to go but that means benching Mordred unless I have to bring him. Is there something else I am missing that makes these classes shine?

Well, first of all, IME it really depends on which vanguards and which sages you're using.

But, in general as far as vanguards go, Balin, Boudicea and Teygr all have a decent skill tree.
All you need to be successful with a Vanguard are a 3AP attack, jump and hide.
Also, grab the upgrade that gives you 1 AP back when you kill something with strike and upgrade jump ASAP so it only costs 1 AP.

Vanguards have lots of mobility (invest in the abilities that grant free movement points) and damage, mobility and positioning are vital in this game.

First, remember that when they start the turn hidden they gain a damage bonus on their first attack.

Second, you should always attack from the rear.

Third, you should never end your turn in melee. Move to the side and keep track of your AP so you always have 2 left to hide. Don't hide in front of the enemy, as soon as they get too close they'll see you and butcher you.

Now: don't rush the enemy's front line, wait for them to close the distance on yours.
Move your vanguard a couple of squares away from the rest of the party, on the sidelines (or behind them if you're facing the Sidhe, as they have higher perception and can easily spot you. This usually makes the vanguard very dead), hide and reserve 6 AP, so you'll have ten/eleven AP + movement AP + Jump to play with on your next turn. 13 if you've got a Sage in your team.
As soon as your frontline stops the enemy's, and your targets are all nicely lined up in front of them, jump behind their lines. Don't start hacking right away: wait for your frontline to shred your opponent's armour, then start backstabbing. You should easily butcher 2-3 opponents, and get back 2-3 AP.
If you started your turn with 11 AP, you should now be down to 4+bonus movement AP if you killed 3 targets (jump, 3 attacks and 3 AP gained on kills), or 6 if you only attacked twice. Use them to move to the sidelines and hide again.

Remember that tier 1 vanguards also get low profile, which (supposedly, since I never had trouble keeping my vanguards alive and thus never actually got it) helps them staying alive (it won't help against melee if you screw up, but it takes off some of the pressure as the enemy archers won't attack your vanguard, if they're far enough).
Also, keep in mind that Teygr and Balin can soften up the enemy's frontline with traps, which will also slow the affected units down, making them spend more AP on movement (and thus less on attacks), which will end up lowering the pressure on your frontliners.
If you play them right, they'll end up dealing a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ of single target damage.

This is at low level. At higher levels, stack movement and AP/Kill from your skill tree, grab the stuff that lets you ignore opportunity attacks, all the +damage on backstab, + damage on mobility and +movement AP/kill you can rack up and run around killing as much stuff as possible, just mind to end up your turn hidden and out of the enemy's reach.

Now, sages... sages vary wildly depending on which one you're playing.
Leodegrance, which I consider the "vanilla" sage (as he's basically a worse Guinevere) still has two invaluable buffs: bless and inspire.
He's also decent at tanking a couple of blows from time to time thanks to globe of protection and frost armor, and Freezing attack can help deal with particularly nasty mobs.
I usually keep him hidden behind my front line. Globe of protection and reserve AP on the first turn (as I said, I never rush the enemy on the first turn, as my setup is mostly composed of melee characters. Have them get close and waste their AP on movement instead), go wild with Bless (on either a vanguard or a champion) and Inspire on the second turn.
He's decent, but, IME, Guinevere is the top dog, if we're talking sages. I also have a soft spot for Lucan, but he's not as good as her.

Guinevere, aside from inspire and bless, also gets freezing attack, teleport and frickin' ICE WALL at tier 3.
Stack +damage on Chill, + damage on freeze, + damage on movement on her and watch in awe as she:
- drops Ice wall on the field, giving cover to your units and making the enemy engage your first line on your terms.
Also, with the right upgrades and the right party setup (a champion with Earthshaker, for example), Ice Wall can easily freeze 3+ opponents in a turn.

- teleports behind the enemy's backline (teleport's range is insane). Backstabs and chills or freezes one target (both on particularly beefy opponents), then backstabs them to death reducing all her cooldowns by 1, casts inspire, reducing all of the party's cooldowns, including hers, by 1, teleports away (and, depending on her upgrades, also ends up hidden).

- T3 sages also get an AP for every kill ANY OF YOUR UNITS SCORE. So, those 4 kills the vanguard scores? Your sage gets 4 AP back. Anything your champion kills? More AP back, so she can deal with even high HP opponents before disappearing again, if you time your actions right.


As for Lucan, he's far less impressive, but he's tanky as hell (Magical Armor+ globe of protection), has decent mobility (dash), all the standard Sage goodies (AP on any enemy kill on the map, cooldown reduction on kills, inspire and bless) and gets Monster Hunter for a nice damage bonus. He severly lacks the battlefield control Guinevere provides, tho.

Honestly, I find Sages and Vanguards invaluable. My to-go setup usually includes a champion, a sage and a vanguard, with either a tank or a second champion with defensive stance, if possible, to help hold the front line.
Obviously, this is what works for me. Depending on your preferred playstyle, you might prefer different setups.

Good luck, I hope you found the above wall-of-text useful :)

[Kael]

Some good advice has already been given.
I'll expand on that by saying that for vanguards and Sages positioning in crucial.

With vanguards you want to use them to hide and backstab in order to take out critical and defensively weaker enemies such as Archers, mages etc. (late game the can kill almost anything, but because of their high mobility and ability to hide I send them at the enemy's backline). Always end your turn hidden and try not to be spotted by avoiding the enemy's route to your knights. Vanguards, ideally, should never get hit in combat. Movement points, backstabbing and surprise attacks along with mobility is their bread and butter.

If you are not experienced yet with the game, pairing a sage with a defender who has taunt and Guard can make the game more forgiving if you struggle in keeping them alive.

Overall the builds suggested above are very good and Njall gave good advice on that. I recommend you put emphasis on proper positioning.

Hope it helps!

[Lovecraft]

Make sure not to be greedy with your Vanguard, meaning that after your final attack in a round you must leave enough AP to hide, preferably in a spot where the enemy doesn't spot on their turn.

[PDX MM]

Yeah I have since discovered just how powerful vanguards can be when used correctly. Still not sure about the sage but I did just open up tier 3 abilities. Thank you everyone for your input you did help me learn a lot.

[jamais203]

Vanguards 3AP/jump are over the top. Pretty sure you can solo the game on very hard with balin.

[Terrapin]

The biggest thing with Vanguards is they take more planning than all the other classes. I felt that they were garbage as someone else wrote in this thread until I learned how to play them. There is a lot of good advice in this thread but the most important to me is always end the turn hidden and in a spot where the enemy will not discover you. Do that and they can be devastating with backstab and surprise attack gear.

[proba 1 2 3]

Originally posted by Njall:

Leodegrance, which I consider the "vanilla" sage

This. :D

[proba 1 2 3]

On a more serious note, even I felt him to be lacking compared to other Sages. I will have the designers look into his skill tree.