Items, deployables, and talent tree upgrades

[gandalf.graycloak]

As I've played into this and rose in levels (Now lvl. 51 I think) I've noticed things in the talents where I can get extra generic storage slots in deployable crafted items and I think I recall even lightning rods can get a durability boost, etc.

What frustrates me is I've also noticed its not applied to existing items, only to items I make post-talent choice. I'll describe my frustration with this below, but let me offer my sympathies on it first:

I think I understand why - it's mainly due to the possibility of a re-spec where I might decide to take a talent, make a bunch of items, then back out of it to spend those points elsewhere. This way I can keep the added spaces and/or durability while knowing I'm giving up the ability to produce like items in the future if I back out of the talent.

Additionally it might make for a player debacle if, when I take the talent, all my cupboards "magically" get the new slots - then over time I fill the slots with items. Some time later I back out of the talents and likewise the extra slots "magically" rescind, and now there's stuff popping out of cabinets laying on the floor which will eventually degrade/disappear.

OK I get all that as difficulties on how to program such a system.

So, one might utter as advice, the answer is to go to each cabinet (or lightning rod, etc.) and take it down then replace it with a new one which has the new-talent spec's upon it.

Doable, yes, but we (rightly) suffer a resource penalty when we destroy and item and only get back some of its resources. I say "rightly" because if we got back everything we could just make and unmake rope with fiber repeatedly and level standing at a workbench while never leaving the hut. SO OK, fair enough I get that.

Now in the case of an ordinary lightning rod - wow ten copper ingots for a new one - should be something I can live with and that's OK - but a platinum lightning rod has some sub-parts and isn't so easy to replace given what you get back from destroying the old one. I already worked for those resources and I am due the upgraded capabilities of the talent, so thus the dilemma.

So what about a "talent tool" where, if used on an item (like said cabinet or lightning rod, et al), the game checks the talent tree and if we're due such an upgrade should we were to make a new one, the tool just does the "magic" on an item-by-item basis?

This way the player still has to invest some intentionality into a sort of "remake" of the item but doesn't take the resource hit of destroying and making a new one.

[Rekal]

The deployable buff talents are literally that: Buffs placed on the items. They are saved in the state of the depolyable. The only consideration is when you make it did you have the talents (special crafting skill) to apply the buff (special alteration).

Some people create a second character to take those talents and sometimes the farming skills and just pop into the prospect to craft the stuff and farm. If the item buffs were tied directly to a character and whether or not they had a talent then what would happen when the character logs out of a shared prospect?

That said, the current method of destroying and replacing an item isn't so onerous as to be unattainable. Most of the items are just wood or iron. Your lightning rod example is not a good one for your argument either. To get the lightning rod upgrades, you need to pickup the lightning rod discount talent which is -50% crafting cost (rounded up). Destroying an item gives back 50% of the recipe materials (rounded down). The normal lightning rod is free to re-craft, and the platinum lightning rod will cost you just one copper wire every destroy/craft. Yes, you can sit there and level up by crafting and destroying lightning rods. Knives and bows too if you get their respective discount talents.

The most expensive example to argue would be the increased furnace speed on an electric furnace. However, by the time you're building an electric furnace you probably already have the talent if you are planning to get it. If you got it afterwards and think you need a faster furnace, it'd probably be more beneficial to just build a new one and have two running. By then you probably have unlimited resources setup already so why be stingy?

In all honesty though, you're not really "due" anything by taking the talent. You crafted an item before the talent, and just because you suddenly got "better" at crafting the item because of the talent doesn't mean that ones you crafted previously should magically improve.

I think it's fine the way it is. The costs are minuscule overall and resources are infinite. I think the talent tool idea to upgrade in place would be a convoluted nightmare to program. Much simpler set it up so you take the deployable back to the work bench and have a "refine" or "alter" option that applies the appropriate buffs.

[gandalf.graycloak]

I'd have to disagree on the "not due" argument when applied to having a talent tool as suggested. Not hard to code and saves all the hassle - it's more than just items of wood or copper, etc. - one has to empty the object and store all that stuff for the moment, recreate the upgraded item, then restock the new one back in the spot one intended to have that storage item sit, etc.

I do appreciate the point made about mats discount being necessary before other upgrading skills are available. Not sure but wouldn't that presume one was at that exact progression in the talent tree when he made the first item, thus breaking it down doesn't hurt resource-wise? But nonetheless a fair point.

Mainly though the whole context is missed by the very idea of "not so onerous as to be unattainable" - it causes me to just stare at the screen and blink with my mouth open.

It's a game designed for entertaining all things considered. Remaking stuff I already did isn't entertaining nor does it invoke some feeling of work-ethic grandeur. Just give us a tool to apply new abilities and cut out the nonsense is all I'm asking them for.

If one finds that hassle "challenging" (remake the item hey it's not unattainable) then don't use the proposed tool.

Edit: Heck it doesn't even need to be a tool. That early water purifier could tell the difference between me having a water container active or whether I just wanted a drink for the character - put it in a fly-out menu like that. The code could just look up what talents I "now" have vs. the item's current state. If my talents exceed the current state, offer the upgrade.

[Rekal]

Originally posted by gandalf.graycloak:

I'd have to disagree on the "not due" argument when applied to having a talent tool as suggested. Not hard to code and saves all the hassle - it's more than just items of wood or copper, etc. - one has to empty the object and store all that stuff for the moment, recreate the upgraded item, then restock the new one back in the spot one intended to have that storage item sit, etc.

Here's the thing though. You could just not do that. You don't have to do any of those things. Ask yourself why you even need the extra slots. Your storage was working just fine before the talent and still is. If you feel you have to have those extra slots in that location? Well the cost is you have to make a new cabinet.

You're acting like moving inventory around is a hassle... It takes all of two seconds to empty a cupboard and move it to another. Are you not using the inventory modifier keys?

Hold Ctrl and left click a stack - Stack is moved from one inventory to the other.
Hold Ctrl and Shift and left click a stack - All stacks of that material are moved from one inventory to the other.

Hold Shift and left click hold a stack - Half the stack is picked up.
Hold Alt and left click hold a stack - One item is picked up from stack.

Are you upgrading wood cupboards? Save yourself the effort and upgrade to the iron cupboards instead, then you'll have the higher base storage slots (50 vs 40) plus the extra talent slots. The only way to hoard! They're also weather proof in case your base glitches and partially disappears while you're away.

Originally posted by gandalf.graycloak:

Mainly though the whole context is missed by the very idea of "so onerous as to be unattainable" - it causes me to just stare at the screen and blink with my mouth open.

It means it's cheap and easy to do. In case you missed that.

I get the context; You don't want to have to do the busy work to upgrade the items your new talent applies to. The busy work - which you could actually just ignore - that will only appear one time in your character's entire existence. So you're suggesting the Devs spend their time and effort ($) to save future players (very selfless of you) from this one-time busy work that only happens when taking a few specific rarely taken talents.

You personally will never experience the Dev's efforts though because you will have moved on and no longer be effected by the upgrade busy work because you've already got the talents and everything new you build in the future will have the upgrades.

Does that about sum it up?

Originally posted by gandalf.graycloak:

It's a game designed for entertaining all things considered. Remaking stuff I already did isn't entertaining nor does it invoke some feeling of work-ethic grandeur. Just give us a tool to apply new abilities and cut out the nonsense is all I'm asking them for.

If one finds that hassle "challenging" then don't use the proposed tool.

The game was also designed expecting you to build new bases regularly on fresh maps. So every future base you make will have the talent buffs in place without any upgrade shenanigans to deal with. No special tool required.

I get it, you're just suggesting an idea you came up with when doing the one-time busy work to get your extra slots. Nothing wrong with that. I don't think you'll get much traction with it though. It's such a niche issue that most players will never experience since they don't take those talents.