Skull-Upgrades should be permanent, and here's why and how to keep it balanced:

[XxGreen AlphaxX]

I started playing the game recently and it's a fun rogue-like,
very cute design, interesting mecanics, pretty challenging gameplay,
And the skull system is pretty awesome,
I thought it was awesome that you could upgrades thoses skulls,
And their appearances would change to reflect their level of upgrades,

yet i was deeply disappointed when i realized that my cool-looking Alpha-Werewolf i
invested so much just to upgrade it was reset to a basic one
And i saw here other-players expressing that they also thoughts Skull-Upgrades should be permanents

I also saw somes players worry about balances if thoses upgrades were to be permanents,
And i think they're not seeing the obvious solution:
Just give the player more control over the difficulty

I'm sorry but to get my point across i'll have to talk about another game
Here's another Rogue-Lite which has permanent upgrades for it's weapon and stats, and manage to keep it balanced, Hades

In Hades you can upgrade your weapons, it take somes ressources a bit of grinding,
and thoses weapons becomes much-stronger as a result, but the game keep it balanced by letting the player choose how difficult he want the game to be once he's finished it at least once and by making the grind harder
the more you advance in the game, the more ressources you'll need to upgrade your weapons and stats, which encourage the player to progressively turn-up the difficulty as you get more rewards as the difficulty of the game increase

basically, here Hade's gameplay-loop:
grind to get ressources > unlock powerful permanent upgrades > need more ressources > increase the difficulty of the game > grind to get ressources


My point is:
Skull-upgrades should be permanent, and to balance it out,
the player should get more difficulty-customizations and ressources scaling with difficulty

it would not only give a much better feeling of progression and satisfy players who likes using certains skulls and want to make them strong as they can be,
but it would also satisfy both players who wants more challenges,
and players who want a more tailored to their needs experience

[Duracuir]

i agree !

[Cookiezudu]

if it's optional, i'm ok, cause i enjoy getting my basic skulls upgrading while i advance in the run.

[RedNovaIgnition]

Just learn how to use cheat engine and give yourself 999 bones

[Likwit_H]

I don't agree I like the aspect of choosing what to upgrade each run.

[Zylth]

At the very least if I upgrade a skull, it's upgrade should be available to find in the world later. Right now spending 140 skulls to upgrade a skeleton requires taking literally every green path and still hoping for higher rarity skulls to salvage for a legendary that is on par with everything else.

[XxGreen AlphaxX]

Originally posted by RedNovaIgnition:

Just learn how to use cheat engine and give yourself 999 bones

i already know how to, but i don't want to use cheats
i want the game to be better than it is, why resorting to cheats when instead you could have a game made with a form of interesting progressioon

Originally posted by Zylth:

At the very least if I upgrade a skull, it's upgrade should be available to find in the world later. Right now spending 140 skulls to upgrade a skeleton requires taking literally every green path and still hoping for higher rarity skulls to salvage for a legendary that is on par with everything else.

that'd be fine too, i think the game would be in a much better place if skulls-upgrade were permanents, but with an increased price for each upgrades, and more difficulties-customizations for the player

but at least it would be good enough if instead each-upgrades you made were added to a chance-pool
let's say you upgraded the Werewolf-skull to Alpha like i did,
it'd be already a small improvement if each Werewolf skulls you find would have a chance to appear in a stronger version

Originally posted by Likwit_H:

I don't agree I like the aspect of choosing what to upgrade each run.

if there were more difficulties-customizations,
you could have the choice to make a run with only basic-skulls if you'd want to

this way, players like you likes the current system,
and players like me who wants to keep upgrades would both be satisfied

Originally posted by Fezudu:

if it's optional, i'm ok, cause i enjoy getting my basic skulls upgrading while i advance in the run.

Sure, with just a difficulty-option you'd be able to switch between playing the game with permanents-upgrades, or a more challenging mode which is the current-one

[Fry Kten]

Then it would just be ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ easy... If you started right away with the Legos skulls ya wished for and the items ya wanna use every run, what would be left to do? Grind endlessly cuz boredom doesn't exist?

This feature is some kind of QoL to give you the ability to play with your favourite skull/gameplay till' the end, instead of just hoping for legos skull to fall from the sky. Ya get 5 "stages" to grind thru to get ur skull to lego... ya got way enough time to do it.

[XxGreen AlphaxX]

Originally posted by Fry Kten:

Then it would just be ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ easy... If you started right away with the Legos skulls ya wished for and the items ya wanna use every run, what would be left to do? Grind endlessly cuz boredom doesn't exist?

This feature is some kind of QoL to give you the ability to play with your favourite skull/gameplay till' the end, instead of just hoping for legos skull to fall from the sky. Ya get 5 "stages" to grind thru to get ur skull to lego... ya got way enough time to do it.

well no, it wouldn't, you're factually wrong,
again, i'll urge you to check on another Rogue-Lite called "Hades" which use the exact same-system i was mentioning

Simply, you give more difficulty customization-options to the player and make ressources scales with difficulty
the game will become increasingly hard as you get stronger too
and you will want to make the game harder because it will reward you with more ressources

[Likwit_H]

No Hades combat and upgrade systems are completely different and it's a difficult comparison to make. The thing is making the upgrades permanent would drastically change the flow of gameplay per run and gives you a much much higher chance of obtaining a broken skull at the start of the game. They already give you a chance to start with reaper which is absolutely broken. Just leave upgrading how it is devs.

[dustin1280]

I have played a TON out of hades, the comparison is not equal.

The way skulls work in this game, if upgrades were permanent it would change the entire flow of the game...

This isn't a simple "difficulty control" issue. The entire flow of the game would change.

I DO think the skull system needs work, but your suggestion is definitely not the way to go...

[Enfys Ellezard]

Not a fan of permanent upgrade because then it results in what happened with the Early Access.

The bone doors become worthless after you get one of the bones you enjoy playing. From that point, you just visit only the treasure and money door over and over and fully deck yourself all the time, restocking through the RNG with no problems.

Even if we allow the upgraded stuff to spawn in a higher tier, it results in the same issues. Once you upgrade the skull, you never take the bones door ever again if you can solo carry all the way to the end with it. With more expensive skulls spawning, you take less and less bone door. Right now, you consistently get to your final tier by 3.5 if you take the bone door which, in term of pacing, is quite good to prevent you from just steamrolling through the game with the huge upgrade benefits.

Skul isn't really a game made to be speed run either so difficulty-based ascension type isn't good. It will be a massive pain to balance the game around it just to satisfy a portion of the players who just enjoy being fully decked at the start of a rogue-lite.

I rather they just make upgrading easier/faster but also create some kind of passive for having fully upgraded skull in your inventory, giving you permanent stat or something based on spd/bal/pwr archetype. Right now, you only need 1 upgraded and you never need to swap until the end of the game if you have the right items to go with it, thus bringing back the issue of bones door being worthless door after act 3.5

[XxGreen AlphaxX]

Originally posted by Likwit_H:

No Hades combat and upgrade systems are completely different and it's a difficult comparison to make. The thing is making the upgrades permanent would drastically change the flow of gameplay per run and gives you a much much higher chance of obtaining a broken skull at the start of the game. They already give you a chance to start with reaper which is absolutely broken. Just leave upgrading how it is devs.

Originally posted by 76561197968672499:

I have played a TON out of hades, the comparison is not equal.
The way skulls work in this game, if upgrades were permanent it would change the entire flow of the game...
This isn't a simple "difficulty control" issue. The entire flow of the game would change.
I DO think the skull system needs work, but your suggestion is definitely not the way to go...

you're both expressing fear of change, but do you really want the game to stay the exact-same instead of trying to refine it?
the game wouldn't change that much, ressources would scales with difficulty and your runs would be differents

as it stand now,
the game is basically focused a lot more on RNG than player's skill or dedication,
what will carry your run is up to chances and player-skill come only second,
you can finish the game with ♥♥♥♥-skulls, but it will be incredibly harder than just having luck and getting something strong early-on

i think the flow of the game is good,
but the input of the player on the overall game is way too weak,

to me it's obvious that what makes a game-good, especially rogue-likes,
is giving the player differents tools and letting-him make something interesting out of it,
as of now, it's not really the case, the player depend on what RNG gives-him

to me the solution is quite obvious:
scale ressources with difficulty, increase the cost of skulls upgrades,
but make them permanents, and give the player more options for difficulties
you'll be rewarded for upgrading your skulls by letting you play with something stronger and easier to find,
but at the same-time you'll be forced to turn-up the difficulty of the game just to keep upgrading them
so the player get stronger as he plays the game while also still be challenged at the same-time

it's not that hard, Hades did it and it's not that crazy,
for example gives a setting which add minor enemies in boss-rooms,
but now bosses also gives a bit more ressources
it's an interesting-way to reward the player for being brave, while also challenging him

Originally posted by Enfys Ellezard:

Not a fan of permanent upgrade because then it results in what happened with the Early Access.

The bone doors become worthless after you get one of the bones you enjoy playing. From that point, you just visit only the treasure and money door over and over and fully deck yourself all the time, restocking through the RNG with no problems.

Even if we allow the upgraded stuff to spawn in a higher tier, it results in the same issues. Once you upgrade the skull, you never take the bones door ever again if you can solo carry all the way to the end with it. With more expensive skulls spawning, you take less and less bone door. Right now, you consistently get to your final tier by 3.5 if you take the bone door which, in term of pacing, is quite good to prevent you from just steamrolling through the game with the huge upgrade benefits.

Skul isn't really a game made to be speed run either so difficulty-based ascension type isn't good. It will be a massive pain to balance the game around it just to satisfy a portion of the players who just enjoy being fully decked at the start of a rogue-lite.

I rather they just make upgrading easier/faster but also create some kind of passive for having fully upgraded skull in your inventory, giving you permanent stat or something based on spd/bal/pwr archetype. Right now, you only need 1 upgraded and you never need to swap until the end of the game if you have the right items to go with it, thus bringing back the issue of bones door being worthless door after act 3.5

Well here's where the problem lies, bones are already mostly useless
why would you bother upgrading something at-all when you'll probably get a stronger skull at some-point?

the current system already makes the entire bone-system almost useless,
the game dosn't reward you for making a build out of garbage you get,
the game force you to just go for something stronger even if the build dosn't fit that well
somehow, you have more control over the items you get (with the shop),
than with the skulls you can upgrades, in a game called "Skul"

to me it's a blatant-flaw,
a good rogue-like is designed to give you tools, and let the player make something good-out of it
if a entire subsystem of the game is basically useless and force you to rely on pure luck to get a good build,
well to me it's obvious that it mean that subsystem need to changed to fit the game better

As for balance,
well that's the point of difficulty-customization,
the game could be balanced as you want, you could make it stupidly hard, or a walk through the park
I do think sometime difficulty shouldn't be influenced by the player, forcing him to learn the mecanics of the game
but we're not talking about Dark-Souls here, which has enough mecanics and freedom of building which let you finish the game with about any-build as long as you have the skill to back-it-up

we're talking about Skul here,
a Rogue-Lite which has a pretty awesome subsystem of upgrades which could reward the player for investing into it by giving slightly stronger start,
and instead end-up with a subsystem which you will mostly ignore because you can just always go for better stuff


i stand by my point that scaling ressources with difficulties would be a huge upgrade to the overall game
it would give a lot of replayability while also giving a lot more challenge and interesting-mecanics for players

[XxGreen AlphaxX]

i like Skul, it's a fun, cute rogue-lite with somes pretty interesting characteristics to it
but i think the game could be so much better with only very-few changes

[brago90]

That the upgrade is permanent I think is excessive. But after upgrading a skull we can unlock the possibility of finding evolved skulls, I think it would be appropriate. If you are lucky you can skip hunting skulls and if you don't have it then you evolve the ones you have.

[MagiMelkor]

It's already easy enough absolutely no need to make the upgrades perma.