Should Chaos/Infernal gates be extra rooms?

[Daywalker]

I mean like if you are in room 10 and you enter a chaos/infernal gate you are in 10.5 and the next room is 11.

My problem with those rooms are that often they are
not worth the risk / you are not even thinking about the risk/reward.
With the main problem being that could have gone into a different room instead so that Chaos/Infernal gates a basically only a good choice if the other romms don't have a boon/hammer/pom

Example:
when I see an infernal gate with (200) coins but the next room is a hermes boon I'm not even gonna think about the risk/reward of the infernal gate the hermes boon is well worth 200 coins not to mention that with the 200 coins I just end up in a shop with a random boon that might not help me.

My main reason for entering a chaos gate is:
#1 for the conversation, most of the time the chaos boons aren't really helpful, taking damage and missing out on a room (especially if it it is something like a boon) just to get cursed and then get a mediocore boon is just not worth it.

#2 the other room rewards are mostly useless (key,gems,dark energy)

So the whole risk/reward thing is not really a factor since going for a boon/hammer or even a pom is usually better than going for a chaos gate.

There are even more things to talk about/mention but I don't want this post to be any longer if not necessary.

TL;DR

Chaos/Infernal gates are often not worth it without even taking the risk/reward factor into consideration making them extra floors would give you a very good reason to enter them (if you are willing to take the risk).

[Zymeth]

I don't think they are supposed to be better than everything avalaible, but certainly are better than darkness, gems, coins, and depending on your build - better than some boons. While it is more debatable for chaos as his bonuses are unknown / a gamble, erebus can be altered. If they would not count as a room, erebus would be from none to marginal risk with potentially very high reward (50 health is 50% of the starting pool), and chaos with cosmic egg would be broken too.

On the other hand, I agree that the shop is sometimes just a missunderstanding. It should at least have guaranteed one boon avalaible.

[Daywalker]

Originally posted by Zymeth:

I don't think they are supposed to be better than everything avalaible, but certainly are better than darkness, gems, coins, and depending on your build - better than some boons. While it is more debatable for chaos as his bonuses are unknown / a gamble, erebus can be altered. If they would not count as a room, erebus would be from none to marginal risk with potentially very high reward (50 health is 50% of the starting pool), and chaos with cosmic egg would be broken too.

On the other hand, I agree that the shop is sometimes just a missunderstanding. It should at least have guaranteed one boon avalaible.

but thats what I don't like about those rooms they are not risk/reward rooms but simply "oh there isn't anything better" rooms which is really disappointing.

if the risk isn't big enough (which is partially true)
then I think they should make them a bit more risky if they make them extra rooms.
like the chaos gate costing more HP and the infernal gate having a harder fight.
or with the infernal gate they leave the difficulty but reduce the reward to not be double.

edit:
I just had another idea for chaos gates
when you enter them you lose 80% of your current HP but once the curse is lifted you get those HP back.
to clarify I don't mean max HP so yes you could heal some HP right away.

[Daywalker]

oh and also some things like the cosomic egg might ofcourse need changing with that.
I'm not saying that the devs should just make them extra rooms and thats it.
obvioulsy when you change something other things might need to be changed too.

[Daywalker]

also another thing to note:
I do understand if the devs don't want to make the chaos gates too risky because it's the only way to talk with chaos (though I personally would still prefer it to be a risk/reward room)

but when it comes to the infernal gates I really think they should be risk/reward extra rooms

edit:
though for the chaos gates they could make it so you can enter with no penalty and talk to chaos without taking the boon and only if you take the boon you get the penaltys.

[Anderson]

Chaos could be an extra room without any problems, since it is a trade off.

Erebus, however, offer potentially a better prize than a regular room, so if it was an extra room, you would go into it 100% of the time. If you want Erebus to be an extra room, it would have to have some penalty for losing.

[Daywalker]

Originally posted by ;3969311271674240909:

Chaos could be an extra room without any problems, since it is a trade off.

Erebus, however, offer potentially a better prize than a regular room, so if it was an extra room, you would go into it 100% of the time. If you want Erebus to be an extra room, it would have to have some penalty for losing.

erm... the penalty for losing is
1. you took damage
2. all you get is an onion which is only a 1HP heal
isn't that a penalty for losing?

Apart from that I havle already said that the devs could make the room more difficult or lower the rewards
and yeah going into the room almost all the time is also what I want, you think you can take the risk/challenge you go in. Risk/Reward.

[Anderson]

Think about this - If you were offered a chance to run a bonus room to win a Centaur Heart, would you? Of course you would. You would run as many bonus rooms as the game allowed, because these would just be free rewards.


Compare it to Treasure Troves. Those could basically be thought of as bonus rooms, since it is an extra fight that does not move you to another chamber. But the rewards there are darkness and gems, stuff that does not help you in your run. The extra health CAN be helpful, and that is the only time where your run can improve as a result of taking on an extra challenge. Same goes for the coins, which, if you collect, are basically bonus cash (and, unless you are doing terribly, you should always go for).


Mind you, I would not actually be opposed to extending the run in this way. A longer run is something I want, so if they made Erebus a bonus room, I would not mind at all. I just think that would make it an autopick, basically, given how strong the reward is.

[Daywalker]

thats why I have 2 main ideas

the 1st being that they lower the reward to just be normal and not double so that they actually are no-brainers/ run extenders which is actually deserved because: *read last section*

or 2nd make the rooms more difficult in some way like an extra modifier so that they are true risk/reward rooms

and aside from that there is already a real penalty for infernal troves... the pact of punishment if you don't use it you don't get access to them so it just seems logical to make them more of a no-brainer, atleast to me.

[Tinytim]

chaos boons are absolute beasts if you get the right ones. Artemis attack + chaos boon to boost base attack dmg = victory (not kidding. that combo is broken).

As for infernal rooms. They kinda suck. To get an HP room early can be worth it, but the rest... meh. Atm I go into them halfway because I want the codex entry for the onions in case I fail.

They should be time frozen in regards to the time limit pact though. Just to make it consistent with how they don't count as full rooms.

[Anderson]

I'm basically with you here, I want extra rooms and challenges, no-brainers or not.

If Erebus reward is normal (and not double), then it being an extra room would have no major effect on the run. If you get +25 health from it, and then the next room also gives +25 health, that is the same as getting +50 health and skipping the next room.

So yea, bring on the extra rooms.

[Zymeth]

This isn't bad reasoning and I'd like longer runs too and changed in a simmilar way, it could make them more interesting. But I doubt the devs are eager and have time to implement changes this big at this point, especially that common trend for games is for them to be short.

[Daywalker]

Originally posted by Zymeth:

This isn't bad reasoning and I'd like longer runs too and changed in a simmilar way, it could make them more interesting. But I doubt the devs are eager and have time to implement changes this big at this point, especially that common trend for games is for them to be short.

I actually don't think it is a "big" change and since those rooms are optional and not that long (I mean they take about 1 minute if at all) I would imagine that the devs will change them.
maybe not anything that we have been talking about but I'm sure they will do something.

[Blue Nerolee]

I'm not that keen on entering the Chaos gates either. Some boons are quite good but none of them is superior to most other regular boons when you consider that you lost HP, gave up on a chamber reward, bore a curse and had to wait several encounters before benefitting from it. So even if Chaos' offerings weren't meant to be the ~ best ~ you might still expect something more spectacular due to their special and dramatic presentation.

But it's alright and an interesting alternative if the next chamber's reward are a few gems or darkness.

[omniwyrd]

Chaos:
Lost room
Mediocre boon
Little reward vs risk

It kind of detracts away from strategic choice. Its a way to throw more RNG at the run.
Best reward from chaos is the conversation.

I only choose chaos if he is in Tartarus, because he can spoil a good run.

[Zymeth]

Originally posted by decimal hallow:

Chaos:
Lost room
Mediocre boon
Little reward vs risk

It kind of detracts away from strategic choice. Its a way to throw more RNG at the run.
Best reward from chaos is the conversation.

I only choose chaos if he is in Tartarus, because he can spoil a good run.

How can he? He offers variety of conditions and rewards - most of which are imo much worth it. +base dmg from anything, +cast, +death defiance, +health.. its all so good.