Dopamine, and why is Hades so addictive

[Manu]

First, I want to say that I genuinely enjoy this game and I will play more of it. But today I installed TikTok on my phone and I saw how it works (and got scared and uninstalled it) and it got me thinking about Hades and how these last few days I got so hooked on it, and I kind of wanted to share my thoughts on it.

So Dopamine is a chemical that pleasures the brain whenever the person gets something done (or learns something, or gets any kind of closure or conclusion or whatever). It's why we all open social media instinctively or why binge-watching a season of a show feels like accomplishing something. You start something, you get the anticipation of how rewarded you will feel when you conclude it, then you get invested, and then when you finish you get the release... and then, if the release is at the same time (or right next to) a hook for the next cycle, one can stay in the loop for very long.

I feel like Hades is a long dopamine cycle (the story) broken down into small, few hour cycles (prophecies of the fates for example, which take a few runs to complete, or storylines), broken into 45 minute cycles (runs), broken into 12 minute cycles (levels), broken into 1 minute cycles (rooms). At the end of each cycle, big or small, the player gets a little reward and a little anticipation for what they'll get at the end of the next cycle (the preview of the reward in the next room door, the level transition, the little bits of dialogue in between runs and the next weapon with bonus darkness that gets the player thinking about how to plan the next run). All these things make, sometimes, for some people, easier to keep playing than to stop playing; and very easy to get hooked into the constant dopamine hits and forget about what time it is.

I'm not saying the game is bad or that SGG is evil, I love those guys and I love this game. I also love chocolate and wine. But I think it's important to be aware of what is happening to one's brain (and/or body) while indulging in these things. I'd love to know that every time I play I do it because I choose to, and often it's the case but I'm sure that sometimes I just let myself go into the next level because it's the easy thing to do. (This cannot be just me, I mean granted I'm an impulsive person but I'm sure it happens to many many players to a degree).

And honestly, although it's not their responsibility, I think it would be very nice and not off-brand for SGG if sometimes the game offered the player an exit. Intentionally break the loop. As in, imagine that sometimes this or that character in the House of Hades says "hey, you've had many escapes today, maybe chill for a bit?" like traying to say "maybe put the controller down and walk in the outside world, just to have the chance to consciously decide whether you want to keep playing out of genuine enjoyment or whether you're just at it because you're hooked?" Maybe sometimes Zagreus gets tired sometimes and wants to take a nap, and that takes the player to a dark screen for a few seconds with a Hades logo or something and that's enough for the player to look away from the screen and see what time it is? I'd consult someone who actually knows this business, I'm by no means an authority on this field.

I don't know, I thought it was an interesting thought.

[EvilShuckle]

Well. There is some truth to what you say but not entirely. What makes people addicted to things is the reward system. The hook and reward thing is what any addict is addicted to. In games it is pretty simple. A task with a reward is what keeps you going. It makes both use of the dopamine reward after finishing a task, as well as the focus on the task at hand aspect, where our brain forgets a lot of imput that is not directly required for the task at hand, thus creating the illusion of time going by faster. This way you are both getting a dopamine rush as well as spending a lot of time without noticing.

A lot of games purposely abuse it. Generally mobile games make use of a concept that works like that, so much so that you are willing to spend a little bit of money to get that new cool thing that is hard to come by otherwise and rare. Something other people don't have.
Once you have done that, it is easier to spend a tiny more and soon enough it will be much more than a full game would be.

But Hades isn't all that much like it. Sure, it does have the same thing but there aren't really games that don't. The games that don't probably don't want anyone playing them.

Games generally serve one purpose: It allows people to escape real world and it comes with some dopamine.

I don't think it is fair to mention it here. Unless you go to every game ever to do the same. Hades isn't a game that abuses this system.

And the thing is, knowing how your brain works is something that everyone should know. If you are not understanding how addiction works, and you let yourself get addicted to stuff, then it's on you.

And if you do know, why would you need a game to tell you it's time to go outside? Are you that weak that you need someone to tell you what is good for you and what you should do with your life? (no offense, it's meant as a general question, not directed at you). I'd probably be annoyed if a game tells me to go outside and do other stuff.

[Taijin]

Well, Nuclear Throne did occasionally say "remember to take a 15 minute break for every hour of play!" during its loading screens, but that fit into the whole weird loading screen text thing it had going on.

Believe it or not this isn't the first time this kind of discussion has come up. There's a pretty substantial amount of discussion out there about the interaction of neurochemistry and certain game designs; just look at how any loot-based game works, your Destiny, Warframe, Diablo style action grind. I'd definitely recommend looking it up, it's most certainly a central element to how players engage with run-based Roguelite games on the Spelunky/Binding of Isaac template.

There's an argument that the dopamine cycle is an inescapable part of how these kinds of games operate, you can't have anything that involves anticipation of a result and not have our brains react in the way they've evolved to. If playing this or any game is something that ends up harming you or someone you know, maybe consider getting professional help. Fighting your own brain chemistry is not something that a periodic reminder in your fave video game is going to solve.

[Manu]

I don't know, I kind of feel like the end of any game session on Bastion, Transistor or Pyre felt much more conclusive and easy to close than this, somehow? Or maybe they're shorter? Also games of Basion or Transistor are not neatly broken into one minute loops, kind of prepping me to look for the next rush.

I don't know. Maybe I'm hooked because I genuinely like the game a lot (that's for sure part of it). But, I mean, some games are more prone to the "just one more turn" syndrome. We have all played Civilization. It's easy to think we want to play one more turn because we're having fun but really, with Civ, sometimes it's not really the case. Does it not happen to you guys too?

[Taijin]

Originally posted by Mr. Lion:

Also games of Basion or Transistor are not neatly broken into one minute loops, kind of prepping me to look for the next rush.
...
It's easy to think we want to play one more turn because we're having fun but really, with Civ, sometimes it's not really the case. Does it not happen to you guys too?

Definitely, but here's a question for you: how much experience do you have with run-based roguelike/lites? Things like Spelunky, Dead Cells, Binding of Isaac, Nuclear Throne, FTL even?

[Manu]

Not much, why does that matter? Maybe other roguelikes do it too and it's also not great?

You know which game abused this a lot? WoW, apparently. They were masters at making the player feel like s/he did something productive after each game session.

I don't know, I don't think I have a problem personally. Maybe I didn't really come through. But sometimes it does take some effort to put the controller down and I think the structure of this game feeds into that, and I think breaking the cycle now and then would be appreciated by me, and I think maybe by other players too.

It would feel to me like a nice thing to do, is what I'm saying. But maybe it is just me.

Also: I'm kind of feeling bad about this thread, like I'm talking bad about people I like and a game I also like, but I still think the topic is relevant and the reason I bring it up here is precisely because I like SGG and I feel like I can disclose these things.

[Taijin]

Yeah, that's the thing; the dopamine cycle is kind of an inherent part of the roguelike. You aren't describing something unique to Hades here, this type of game has it built in. You're always in "one more turn" mode because you're constantly planning for the next run and there's no well-defined cutoff point. What you're describing isn't a Hades thing, it's a roguelike thing. Believe me, I should know. Slay the Spire, Enter the Gungeon, Nuclear Throne and Dead Cells are among my top-played games on Steam.

It's very much not the greatest, and it's the reason I'm careful not to play games like Destiny these days. The thing about WoW and other MMOs/Loot-based-multiplayer-things is that hacking the dopamine cycle is much more ripe for discussion of exploitation and abuse because that game *relied* on player retention. They needed people to keep playing, and so there was a definite incentive to not only make a game that people liked playing but one that people felt a *need* to keep playing.

With all that said, I do see your concern. Just know that you're entering a larger conversation here than SGG and Hades. Is this something that all roguelike developers should be thinking about? Is this where we start? Maybe with the knowledge that roguelikes have a tendency to become compulsive, SGG could consider having more frequent "rest" prompts for Zag to take a break once in a while, some way of creating those break points that help people maintain a healthy gaming lifestyle. It sucks that you're discovering this phenomenon here and now with Hades, which is hardly the worst example out there, but then again that's not a reason to *not* have this discussion. Just because you're not the worst doesn't mean you can't do better.

[Manu]

I'm happy that you understand :) I only tried one other Roguelike once but I guess I didn't like it as much and/or I died a lot more and I got frustrated lol

Your information is interesting, thank you very much, and I think I would be proud (out of the fact that I'm emotionally invested with this developer) if Hades was the first Roguelike to say "hey we're thrilled you like our game and we invite you to go stretch your legs and come like us again in five minutes". It would be sweet :)

[FreddyTheMonkey]

Interesting conversation for sure. Although I don't necessarily believes Hades is particularly "dangerous" on that front (Taihus explained the matter very well in his/her posts) I dig your ideas.

"As in, imagine that sometimes this or that character in the House of Hades says "hey, you've had many escapes today, maybe chill for a bit?" [...] Maybe sometimes Zagreus gets tired sometimes and wants to take a nap, and that takes the player to a dark screen for a few seconds with a Hades logo or something and that's enough for the player to look away from the screen and see what time it is?"

I feel like this kind of dialogues or events would fit very very well in the game as it is.