Elysium shieldbearer enemies are not fun or balanced

[Mr Pants]

The shieldbearer enemies in Elysium that have infinite block severely hamper some builds and force a weirdly slow play style, but learning how to kill them is a pain, because they have both an aoe and ranged attack and they just eat through my lives. I imagine that they're there to teach the player the mechanics for the Elysium boss fight, but I find that the boss fight is relatively easier. With the boss, you can take your time and single him out, but the shield guys appear in groups, slow you way down and just stomp some builds. Slowing down on the boss is OK, but slowing down in an otherwise fast-paced room is not fun. I find that this enemy is by far the worst when compared to all other regular enemies, at least as difficult as elites/minibosses.

Some suggestions:
- Examine the data on deaths caused by these guys and also average time spent in a room where these enemies spawn vs other types of rooms - maybe I just suck, but maybe I'm not alone
- Severely nerf the AOE attack (nerf damage or add a more significant delay and/or telegraph)
- Remove or nerf ranged attack (depending on what you do with the AOE attack)
- Limit the speed at which they turn around or add some limit to their block ability.

[Manu]

What about making them minibosses? As in, make a room with a few of them and maybe make them stronger?

[Mr Pants]

After posting this, I lost a great spear run because a 3+3 shieldbearer spawn ate 2 of my lives. Had to turtle around them for ages, not fun :(

[Manu]

I don't have so much trouble with them, funny enough. I try to move a lot and drop ranged attacks or areas, but it depends on the weapon. For example, shield or spear with the second aspect let you move a lot, with the rail you can drop a bomb behind them, etc. Other options are Zeus boons that drop lightning, dash boons that let you straight up dash to their back etc.

They can be challenging but I think you can relatively adapt to them without breaking your flow too much, keep at it!

Maybe other more experienced players have other tips to share? Maybe there are useful playthroughs on youtube? The fact that something is especially challenging for you or me doesn't necessarily mean it's badly designed.

[violet dmboogie]

they kinda annoy me in normal gameplay but the Athena god challenge with these things is the absolute worst thing in the world because in addition to their shield they ALSO get periodic invincibility, even the respawner wisps

my fight there took me five minutes and left me so demoralized i just stood still and let my minotaur friend kill me in the next room

[Mr Pants]

Originally posted by Mr. Lion:

I don't have so much trouble with them, funny enough. I try to move a lot and drop ranged attacks or areas, but it depends on the weapon. For example, shield or spear with the second aspect let you move a lot, with the rail you can drop a bomb behind them, etc. Other options are Zeus boons that drop lightning, dash boons that let you straight up dash to their back etc.

They can be challenging but I think you can relatively adapt to them without breaking your flow too much, keep at it!

Maybe other more experienced players have other tips to share? Maybe there are useful playthroughs on youtube? The fact that something is especially challenging for you or me doesn't necessarily mean it's badly designed.

The problem here is that regular enemies shouldn't require specific builds to handle :/

[Kyresti]

I'm going to second having a disproportionate amount of trouble with them.

Specifically I find most brawler-type builds can chew them up easily, while long-range ones (especially the bow) either take forever to clear a room, get torn to pieces, or both, which makes Elysium's difficulty a lot more variable than it feels like it should be. In particular I think I'd like to see the shield's blocking just a little bit less foolproof, aegis and enemies' alike.

[Aedwynn]

Originally posted by Mr Pants:

The problem here is that regular enemies shouldn't require specific builds to handle :/

Well, those guys just require to learn for real, not just spam attacks with a few dashes.
While they are a bit tougher than others, they die easily enough once you know the trick.
1) They resist frontal attacks, but any hit from behind (including terrain traps) deals damage.
2) They can't turn around fast, especially if they are hit.
So, just get close to shieldbearer, and as he prepares to attack, dash right through it and hit him from behind. Works on any build with any weapon. Yep, you'll need to repeat that a few times, but honestly, there are other annoying enemies, like constantly jumping bomb throwers or slam rocks in Asphodel.
P.S.

Originally posted by dmboogie:

they kinda annoy me in normal gameplay but the Athena god challenge with these things is the absolute worst thing in the world because in addition to their shield they ALSO get periodic invincibility, even the respawner wisps

my fight there took me five minutes and left me so demoralized i just stood still and let my minotaur friend kill me in the next room

Enemies don't have invulnerability on their own - if you see white forcefield on enemies that means a blue crystal enemy is nearby - kill it and others are vulnerable again.

[violet dmboogie]

edit: ninja'd

[Aedwynn]

Originally posted by dmboogie:

nah it was the Athena version of the God Trial (where you pick between two boons and have to fight a challenge from the one you don't pick); the enemies were only shield-bearers and they became invincible at seemingly random intervals

Ah yes, indeed. My bad.

[Mr Pants]

Originally posted by Aedwynn:

Originally posted by Mr Pants:

The problem here is that regular enemies shouldn't require specific builds to handle :/

Well, those guys just require to learn for real, not just spam attacks with a few dashes.
While they are a bit tougher than others, they die easily enough once you know the trick.
1) They resist frontal attacks, but any hit from behind (including terrain traps) deals damage.
2) They can't turn around fast, especially if they are hit.
So, just get close to shieldbearer, and as he prepares to attack, dash right through it and hit him from behind. Works on any build with any weapon. Yep, you'll need to repeat that a few times, but honestly, there are other annoying enemies, like constantly jumping bomb throwers or slam rocks in Asphodel.

I agree that they can be handled somewhat easily when they are alone, although its easy to get hit with the spin attack when dashing through using the bow, but it can be managed.

However, in groups, they are often clustered and not facing in the same direction, which leads them to form an invincible cluster. It becomes worse when their attack sequences are not in sync, leading to a barrage of AOE spin attacks and long range wave attacks from within an impenetrable structure. This is what leads to the unfun experience of turtling and kiting. First you have to clear all other enemies while dodging their attacks. Then you have to single them out and kite them apart enough to get in hits + follow up on the eye. Doing that can take 1-2 minutes that feels very much not like the rest of the experience, and when you get a follow-up spawn of 2+, then its really frustrating.

Also, the slam rocks with armor suck as well, but at least they have a simple pattern and a solid window to get in hits.

[Taijin]

Funnily enough, I've never really had much trouble with them after my first encounter. Doesn't matter if I'm ranged or brawler, I can generally kite them while taking care of any other adds and then it's just a matter of good dash timing. Then again, maybe I just naturally gravitate towards builds that are good against them, so who knows.

[Watermeat]

The worst room I had was when I stupidly picked the wrath of Athena (over Zeus) in Elysium, and the intermittent invulnerability she provided combined with their invulnerability from the front, PLUS the fact that she makes their ghosts invulnerable, and they seemed to group up around them. They ended up taking ages to kill, and they revived a lot. The whole room was a massive slog and took WAY too long. But it was a learning experience, and I definitely will avoid pissing off Athena in Elysium from now on.

Apart from that one case, I think it's fine having to change up your playstyle. In fact, I think that's good enemy design, having to approach them differently.

As for that one case, I don't really think there's any way to "fix it", or even if there's any need to.

[Caith]

Yes. Most frustrating enemy in the game, including all bosses, even Theseus and how long of a grind that is. I spawned 3 and just when I thought I was done with the room it spawned 3 more. The room took about 5 minutes of dodging behind them to hit them twice, then dodge again, repeat. They just have too much life for how turtley they are. Not hard tbh. I don't think I could ever get killed by them, as they heavily telegraph their attacks. I suppose if I had a Sword Attack build and had to continuously get in close that could leave me vulnerable.

[Taijin]

There's gotta be something that people are missing here, I've rarely had this much trouble with them. I'm not saying that in a "git gud" sense, what I mean is there's probably a key to beating them consistently that the game isn't communicating to some people, I just have no idea what it is and so I have no idea what to suggest to SGG to make it clearer or more intuitive.

[Peromancer]

I agree that shield bearers are harder than the boss they are meant to be the tutorial of. Making them turn and attack slower sounds reasonable.