Unfair and cheap final fight component (spoiler warning)

[von]

You go from "♥♥♥♥ yeah" to "meh" in one second. And what about the second phase? He will regain health again and become even deadlier? How about third respawn? Fourth?

Feels like the game is cheating. When the health bar reaches 0 a boss should be defeated. Maybe there's a point in using a yellow "armour" bar or make him go to the second phase after 50% of his health. Even though the game is meant to be replayed it feels really cheap to get thrown back just because I didn't know he's going to respawn at least once after I defeat him (twice?.. thrice?.. maybe more I dunno?..)

A worse alternative would be introducing an enemy or a boss that respawns no matter what you do earlier (the guys that can respawn don't count because it's avoidable), but then again, what's the point in the health bar if it doesn't show the progress honestly?

It might be the case that he'll just keep throwing new phases at the player until the player finally dies, and he is actually very much unbeatable. That would make sense, but it would ruin the game.

Good game design is to telegraph the mechanics, so that player doesn't lose because they didn't know it was coming. The game is fantastic, and I very much appreciate the difficulty curve. Not the difficulty spikes. And having hidden health bars or phases pretty much prevents people from planning their resource spending. Being reckless because you can sacrifice some health and then winning faster because of it is a good feeling, but for that, you have to be able to tell if the risk is worth it. Right now it is impossible.

EDIT: topic title

[von]

Googled it, apparently it's only a 2 phase fight. I had a great run and nice chances there. The game shouldn't ruin runs like this with hidden "♥♥♥♥ you" mechanics like that. A shame.

[Flux_Casey]

Okay, I guess you just learned what a multi-stage boss fight is. I'm sorry for your loss of innocence but this is a mechanic in games that has been common for literal decades. There are two stages. One where he's jobbing, one where he takes you seriously and actually tries.

Now you know, and so you will always know.

[Berkesinambungan]

I know how you feel. I was 1 hit off from being killed after I "defeated" him, boy did I celebrate too early. And of course it ended my run which at that time I thought I had the best build. It sucks, but it's a rogue lite game, things like these (like dying because of not knowing what to expect ahead), are what to be expected. It is part of the game design where you improve by having these pieces of knowledge for the next run.

Maybe this is a bit of a farfetched but to be fair, design-wise it makes sense that he has a second phase since Zag has the power to come back over and over using Death defiance, and Hades, being his father, would very likely have similar powers, including a more poweful Death defiance where it restores all his health. I mean he also a more powerful Cast where he throws the fireball skeleton head that can amplify his damage just like Zag's, and his movesets are similar too (dashing, spinning using spear). I know it still sucks that there is no visual indication to the player that he has that but at least it is not beyond unreasonable.

[von]

Originally posted by Flux_Casey:

Okay, I guess you just learned what a multi-stage boss fight is. I'm sorry for your loss of innocence but this is a mechanic in games that has been common for literal decades. There are two stages. One where he's jobbing, one where he takes you seriously and actually tries.

Now you know, and so you will always know.

A condescending comment, how fascinating. Here, have a pat on the back and a bit of acknowledgement.

Forgetting something? Like "git good"?

[von]

Just to be clear: I don't mind the second stage mechanic. What I'm saying is that presentation could have been less punishing for the player not knowing that it'll happen. This kind of discovery feels really cheap.

I'm not saying the boss fight is too difficult (it is a difficulty spike, yeah, but such is the nature of this kind of games). I'm not saying that boss should not have two or more stages (I'm up for it, the more the merrier!). My point is: do not punish the player who's reached the boss and couldn't beat it in such a way that feels unfair and cheap.

[von]

Originally posted by Berkesinambungan:

I know how you feel. I was 1 hit off from being killed after I "defeated" him, boy did I celebrate too early. And of course it ended my run which at that time I thought I had the best build. It sucks, but it's a rogue lite game, things like these (like dying because of not knowing what to expect ahead), are what to be expected. It is part of the game design where you improve by having these pieces of knowledge for the next run.

Maybe this is a bit of a farfetched but to be fair, design-wise it makes sense that he has a second phase since Zag has the power to come back over and over using Death defiance, and Hades, being his father, would very likely have similar powers, including a more poweful Death defiance where it restores all his health. I mean he also a more powerful Cast where he throws the fireball skeleton head that can amplify his damage just like Zag's, and his movesets are similar too (dashing, spinning using spear). I know it still sucks that there is no visual indication to the player that he has that but at least it is not beyond unreasonable.

Oh, there are hundreds of ways to explain this happening lore wise. It's not like a real life simulation military shooter game. It's a fantasy setting with literal gods being characters in the story. :D

My point is solely about presentation and gameplay.

[Treister]

While I understand that it's frustrating to be close to finally clearing the game and getting taken down by something you didn't expect, that's kind of how these games are. As someone with limited Dead Cells, Binding of Isaac, Enter the Gungeon experience I can say that Hades is my favorite game in terms of not surprising me with an "F U" moment where the only way I was going to figure out the issue was to die quickly without much of a chance at taking down whatever got me.

A second phase, second life bar, these things have been around for a very long time and IMO Mr. Last Boss does a good job of it. He's pretty straightforward and feels underwhelming difficulty wise just a little bit compared to Theseus & Asterius (remembering my first clears) during his first life bar. You can feel that there's probably a "goes ballistic at X%" coming or a second life with a more challenging move set. This isn't to say "git gud", just my experience and disagreeing with your feeling on the gameplay design/ presentation.

I tend to view encounters with expect the unexpected in mind, I like how it plays out. I like that there's a clear transition phase that takes long enough to let the player know it's about to pop off for a second go, I also find that boss to be good at allowing you to sit back a bit and see how he operates before going mental on him with the damage dealing.

What would be good presentation and gameplay for this final boss in your opinion?

[von]

Originally posted by Treister:

While I understand that it's frustrating to be close to finally clearing the game and getting taken down by something you didn't expect, that's kind of how these games are. As someone with limited Dead Cells, Binding of Isaac, Enter the Gungeon experience I can say that Hades is my favorite game in terms of not surprising me with an "F U" moment where the only way I was going to figure out the issue was to die quickly without much of a chance at taking down whatever got me.

A second phase, second life bar, these things have been around for a very long time and IMO Mr. Last Boss does a good job of it. He's pretty straightforward and feels underwhelming difficulty wise just a little bit compared to Theseus & Asterius (remembering my first clears) during his first life bar. You can feel that there's probably a "goes ballistic at X%" coming or a second life with a more challenging move set. This isn't to say "git gud", just my experience and disagreeing with your feeling on the gameplay design/ presentation.

I tend to view encounters with expect the unexpected in mind, I like how it plays out. I like that there's a clear transition phase that takes long enough to let the player know it's about to pop off for a second go, I also find that boss to be good at allowing you to sit back a bit and see how he operates before going mental on him with the damage dealing.

What would be good presentation and gameplay for this final boss in your opinion?

I've stated earlier, displaying the first stage as armour (as in yellow health bar) would be the best option. I'd even let it be armour mechanically, so upgrades that deal more damage to it are worth more to the player.

The transition as it stands now does not really make much sense tbh. "Okay, you've beat me but here's my comeback where I'm stronger and faster!" Getting angrier and stronger out of frustration on losing armour makes much more sense.

I too enjoy Hades much more than any other game in this genre I've played, even Dead Cells (not only gameplay wise but visually as well). And as it stands, such small thing as this hurts even more. Of course now, that I'm fully aware of that second stage (and I know that there are no more stages to be cheaply thrown at me when I don't expect them) I will plan accordingly my next encounters with him.

It's also probably worth mentioning that I've finally felt like I'm good at making longer term decisions and planning my game on this particular run. So this was doubly as frustrating I guess. :D

[lifetake]

Here's my counterpoint were you beating hades if you knew that he had a second stage? You lost great. And roguelikes/lites are about learning mechanics and trying again. You have to learn the bosses patterns and what not and part of that is getting to the net stage and learning from there. You're just in a new learning process. Just like you had to learn the thirds bosses two person fight style you need to learn everything about hades as it comes to you.

[Morton Koopa Jr.]

Originally posted by Von Random:

The transition as it stands now does not really make much sense tbh. "Okay, you've beat me but here's my comeback where I'm stronger and faster!" Getting angrier and stronger out of frustration on losing armour makes much more sense.

I dunno, get pretty angry and stronger when I recover from a death defiance. Why wouldn't Hades.

For the record, I'm of the opinion that phase 2 hades is easier to deal with.

Originally posted by Flux_Casey:

Okay, I guess you just learned what a multi-stage boss fight is. I'm sorry for your loss of innocence but this is a mechanic in games that has been common for literal decades. There are two stages. One where he's jobbing, one where he takes you seriously and actually tries.

Now you know, and so you will always know.

This. My earliest memory was sonic the hedgehog. Jesus.

[Flux_Casey]

Originally posted by Von Random:

A condescending comment, how fascinating. Here, have a pat on the back and a bit of acknowledgement.

Forgetting something? Like "git good"?

No, I just answered your first post in a similar tone to the one you used that repeatedly called the fight bad game design. As other people have pointed out, and as was my original point, you have now seen he has a second phase and will know that going forward. You didn't get to the Elysium boss the first time knowing and planning for a two on one fight either. You go through the game over and over again making incremental progress and learning the mechanics until you eventually beat it. That's what a roguelike is.

And my joke about your loss of innocence because your first post reads like you've literally never run into a multi-stage boss fight before despite how common they are.