Lambent Plume/Pierced Butterfly feel unrewarding to use

[AVRL]

Small bit of context as I get into the issue; this feedback comes from a person who has 150+ runs with all max level keepsakes and a lot of time spent contemplating the value of said keepsakes. I also say this from a self acknowledged standpoint of someone who regularly swaps keepsakes in between biomes to best adapt to the conditions of where I'm at in the game - I understand this may not be the way all other players behave.

Correct me if I'm wrong but currently both Lambent Plume and Pierced Butterfly lose their effects if you swap them for another keepsake mid-run. This presents a bit of an issue for flexibility during runs as these are investment type keepsakes that benefit from being taken very early, typically Tartarus as the most attractive biome for gaining stacks. Given that you lose the entire investment upon changing keepsakes both of these actively discourage you from using any other keepsake during the run, drastically reducing your flexibility and options for your build as you get to later and more difficult biomes.

This being the case, Lambent Plume/Pierced Butterfly essentially encourages 2 behaviours:
1) Take the keepsake early to maximise overall stacks and ease of collecting stacks through less challenging early biomes.
2) Never swapping out the keepsake in between biomes in order to capitalise on the keepsake's benefits by not losing the investment through swapping and cashing in on the investment finishing the last biome.

Both of these points essentially means the most optimal thing to do would be to take the keepsake in Tartarus and use it all the way through to the end of the run - And this is what I argue to be an underwhelming, unrewarding experience. You either take Lambent Plume/Pierced Butterfly at the start of the run for the entire run or you don't take it at all. Neither keepsake offers any immediate benefit while also losing their entire benefit if you swap.

Suggestion: Allow for the keepsake's effects to be maintained even if swapped, either in full or as a diminished effect. This allows the Lambent Plume/Pierced Butterfly to be taken as a flexible early-mid game option while opening up space to diversify keepsake progression as you go through different biomes. All while still giving you the option of taking it through the whole run if you really wanted to.

FAQ:

Q: You can already just take Lambent Plume/Pierced Butterfly early and drop it later it on, what's the problem?
A: You effectively lose any keepsake benefit from all biomes in which you used Lambent Plume/Pierced Butterfly outside of the meta discussion of debating whether or not the minor benefits of lesser stacks made the difference or not in you completing those biomes in the first place. Which I would argue against based on the fact that you could have taken any other keepsake for full value (instead of stacks) and instant benefits. Take Cthonic Coin Purse - gain 200 Obol for the rest of the run to spend on value which benefits you for the rest of the run. Take any God boon keepsake - guarantee a specific boon for your build, value which you take with you for the rest of the run. Take Skull Earring/Lucky Tooth - gain an powerful immediate benefit without investment requirements that offers the flexibility of allowing you to take it at any point in the run.

Q: The investment part of Lambent Plume/Pierced Butterfly is the whole point of the keepsake, you're supposed to take it early and keep it the whole run. What's the problem?
A: I have no inherent problem with investment based keepsakes, I understand you're supposed to take it early and keep it the whole run. The problem is that becomes the ONLY way you can use boon without any flexibility. You either take it at the start and keep it the whole way or you don't take it at all. Any other way to use the keepsake is incredibly sub-optimal to the point where you might as well use a different keepsake that gives you its full benefit upfront. The investment nature of the keepsake is not the issue, the flexibility is and I am suggesting that the punishment of swapping out Lambent Plume/Pierced Butterfly mid-run be removed or reduced.

Q: If you don't like Lambent Plume/Pierced Butterfly then just don't take it?
A: I actually really like the design space of investment based keepsakes, I just don't believe they're worth taking in their current space. The whole point of this feedback post is to provide my reasoning as to why I don't think they're worth taking over other keepsakes and how that can be improved as I would actually really like to start using Lambent Plume/Pierced Butterfly again if there is adequate flexibility during a run to fit it.

[ZeppMan217]

In my most recent Feather run on Hell with 7 heat and Zagreus shield, I managed to get 18%+ dodge and move speed by the time I reached Hades, and that 18%+ run was a garbage one that still took over 40 minutes total. I imagine with a Chaos shield and proper boons you could easily push the Feather well past 25%+.

Plus, I think a fairer option would be to allow the Feather and Butterfly to track your clear times/no hit clears even if you don't have em, i.e. when you go to change your keepsake the Feather and Butterfly would have upgraded stats, as if they were tracking your clears the entire time. That way you could switch to em whenever you feel like you need dodge or damage without having to carry em through the entire run.

[Gatemoth]

Butterfly,Feather mechanics should be always-enabled without needing to equip an artifact.

They improve the core game by rewarding perfect play. But they are much too limiting.

[WGarrison]

I agree with the OP here. I end up rarely using pierced butterfly and lambent plume, and when I do use them it's more just to double check my assumptions on them.

Risky and investment based is pretty cool, I like the idea in theory. It is definitely a problem where you do have to sacrifice your trinket slot the entire run just to get any benefit out of it. The benefit of them barely outpaces the normal trinkets, and if you are playing well enough for them to get strong, they amount to win more trinkets (you are clearly already crushing the game, what is +40% damage at that point).

[lifetake]

The only time I ever use either of them is when I'm doing farming runs and just trying to go fast as possible with no care in the world at 0 heat with the plume. I'd really like it if I actually had a reason to use them in a legit run, but I'd really hope not because of them being overpowered or something. I'd much prefer keepsakes keep a back burner to boons

[Jacobella]

It would be cool if one could keep the benefit after changing keepsakes, it just doesn't increase anymore

[deadbus]

I was wondering if bonuses will be saved after replacing Feather or Butterfly with other items, but here found they won't.

What the point of Feather and Butterfly then? They could be good for early levels when it's much easier to follow conditions and later replace them with other items and keep achieved bonus.

[FreddyTheMonkey]

In 90% of my runs if I don't want to go for a specific God I equip the Butterfly first thing and only switch to a defensive keepsake (Acorn or Lucky Tooth if I was doing poorly) and I honestly don't have the slightest issue there. It rewards me for playing well in the three longest biomes, and by the time I switch it near the end I'll probably have enough boons/hammers to comfortably clear Styx, while getting a keepsake that benefits me more in the Hades fight.

You articulate your points really well but personally I do not think these particular keepsakes were designed with flexibility in mind and I think that's okay. The way I see it at least.

[GutturalWail]

I think you should be able to keep their effects 100%. I was a bit unhappy to see that wasnt already an option as I tried using hermes keepsake.

[Wicked Dick]

I disagree here with OP. I feel like this keepsake is the strongest one in the game, since it does reliably give at least 30% flat damage boost to everything on Zagreus. And this is perfectly balanced by a player having to play perfectly and losing some flexibility as a result. That 22%+ damage bonus on Hydra and later in Elysium is massive (at least on heat level 10+).

Although haven't really tried Lambent Plume, dodge isn't great in this game, since you cannot evade Hades. That keepsake may need some buffs.

[lifetake]

Originally posted by Wicked ♥♥♥♥:

I disagree here with OP. I feel like this keepsake is the strongest one in the game, since it does reliably give at least 30% flat damage boost to everything on Zagreus. And this is perfectly balanced by a player having to play perfectly and losing some flexibility as a result. That 22%+ damage bonus on Hydra and later in Elysium is massive (at least on heat level 10+).

Although haven't really tried Lambent Plume, dodge isn't great in this game, since you cannot evade Hades. That keepsake may need some buffs.

You can dodge Hades

[Wicked Dick]

Originally posted by lifetake:

You can dodge Hades

Only some of his attacks. Had ~80% effective dodge chance, instead was getting hit 80% of the time. This is my best guess to it, since for science I've lost more then 600 life on that fight.

[Google‡¤‡]

I disagree, these two are the best keepsakes in the game if u can use them properly
It possible to get 25%+ dodge chance on Lambent Plume and dodge is amazing in this game, since 1) every boss attack could be dodged, 2) bosses attack in combos, so getting hit one time means getting hit multiple times in a row

of course if u could dodge every attack with a dash, it would be useless, but then Pierced Butterfly would be amazing for this person 40+% flat damage increase a lot

This game doesnt really reward flexibility at all, u later choises are decided when u pick a weapon and an attack button upgrade. I don't see any reason to upgrade X, Y and B at the same time

[Tinytim]

Absolutely agree with OP. Plume is OP AF, but it feels as if I've hamstrung myself choice-wise by choosing it. I generally only take it when I go fists, as the Zagreus aspect + plume = insane dodge (broken tbh).

My suggestion would be a hard cap, and permanent stat gain. And, have the stat gain per encounter increase as you progress through the floors (Tartarus is way too easy to get stacks, the others I feel like I mostly just coast on the tartarus bonus).

[Tinytim]

Originally posted by Wicked ♥♥♥♥:

Originally posted by lifetake:

You can dodge Hades

Only some of his attacks. Had ~80% effective dodge chance, instead was getting hit 80% of the time. This is my best guess to it, since for science I've lost more then 600 life on that fight.

I've fought hades at 50% dodge, and boy did I dodge about 50%. Dodge saved me about 6 40 dmg hits at least. You might just have had bad RNG. Dunno if there's a hard cap for dodge though. Should be.

[Anderson]

I really like the Butterfly, because it gives you a mini-challenge every room. And you get rewarded for playing well.
Not as big of a fan of the Plume, as I prefer accuracy over mad speed. And some rooms feel impossible to clear in time.