Charm is a cursed effect

[Jlobster]

Aphrodite's most representative effect is so bad that it more deserves to be called "bug" than "bad game mechanic". I was even tempted to send this message through Bug Reporter, but that would be rude so now I'm here.

Charming is a great idea for goddess of love, but it is a bad mechanic in general, anywhere, except turn based games. Here is the couple of reasons

0. Charmed enemies can hit you. But I guess it's a bug, so for now it will be the point zero.

1. Charming effect ends faster than enemy does something.

2. Effect of Aphrodite's Aid's maximum charge is VERY disappointing. On the scale from 0 to 10 it's -5. I ain't joking. I was trying to kill Hydra and intentionally waited for all heads to show up to charm them and see will they fight each other or they'll try to attack main head. And you know what? ALL MY ARROWS HIT ONLY ONE HEAD AND IT DID NOTHING! That was so frustrating that I just gave up, stopped trying and just accepted death.

3. Also, about Hydra's heads - only 1 of it has good distance, so Aphrodite's aid is utterly useless against this boss.

Summary - Charming is very, very, VERY bad mechanic. And nothing can change it, so here's my message to devs - don't try to fix it. You can't. You can make anything, but this effect is just cursed. Replace it, remove Aphrodite from the game, do anything except trying to fix it. But if you won't listen to random person in discussions and still try to do it - good luck. You'll need it.

P.S. Cheers to Bisnap. His "favorite" weapon, Charmed Bow, found successor of itself.

[Eizo]

I think it's an issue more with the call (Aphrodite's Aid) than with charm itself.

If you get the boon that makes weak effects also have a chance to charm foes (Unhealthy Fixation), then you will experience the strength of charm. Especially if you have the boon that applies weak on attack (Heartbreak Strike) and a fast hitting weapon, with the exagryph or the bow with Flurry Shot you can enthrall a enemy, even a boss, eternally (or until it dies at least).

Aphrodite's Aid works too, I had fun with it in the boss fight in Elysium. BUT, it is pretty weak overall and I would pick any other call over that one, even Dio's poison burst.

[Jlobster]

Good point, but still - it's really bad if some effect good only if it put in addition to another effect. This makes the goddess of love worst option in choice between her and anybody else, include Sysyphus and resources. You can get her pretty average Weak effect and chance to upgrade it it to Charm later, or you can get something cool without waiting or blessing RNG.

Still, I absolutelly sure that this problem is global and unsolvable - love effect is cursed in real time games. I've never seen it's being at least useful. This effect bad even because of it's definition - you make a friend of your enemy, which should be an easy target for you. It's like to make a knife from bread that you wanna cut.

Althought, I love the idea that you can befriend Asterius or Teseus and make them fight each other, I'll definitelly try to do this one time, haha!

[Mr Pants]

I get the frustration, and agree that her call could use some work. However!

1) When using her call at sub-max charge, I think of it as a short stun/confuse effect, which works on bosses and allows for safer single-target damage dealing. Best use case is Elysium boss fight, although Theseus's shield can nullify it, so it needs to be timed perfectly. Another good use is the Barge of Death fight.

2) When using her call at max charge, I completely forget about and disregard her charm and think of it as a 2000+ damage nuke. So in the case of the hydra, I save up my charge and use it to one-shot the boss after the 3rd round of heads has been cleared. Also works nicely on Hades. The issue vs other calls is that it has no AOE capabilities (Dio, Zeus) or flat out immunity (Ares, Athena), which are somewhat more useful than a long-range nuke.

It does have use cases, but they are way more limited than other gods.

Also you should always choose Sisyphus to forward his story and unlock Bouldy ;)

[Kill'em ALL]

Mate, it's patently obvious that you wrote the post while angry and in a need to vent your frustration. That's really not the most constructive way to communicate. Try and slow down a bit, it's just a game after all.

Originally posted by Лобстер:

0. Charmed enemies can hit you

Already confirmed to be a bug that will get fixed, so a non-issue, really as one of the explicit purposes of EA is to find and eliminate bugs before full release.

Originally posted by Лобстер:

1. Charming effect ends faster than enemy does something.

That depends on the enemy but for slower ones yes, that is true. Personally I think it'd be better for charm to last until the enemy performs a single attack, not for a set duration of time, but that's a balancing issue.
What is more important is that the charm STOPS the enemy from doing something - namely attacking you. It's a nice breather, especially in a crowd. More importantly it's the only surefire way to interrupt a boss or armored enemy's attack, and that's HUGE.

Originally posted by Лобстер:

2. Effect of Aphrodite's Aid's maximum charge is VERY disappointing

Agreed here as far as the "charm" component is concerned. I think the Call's charm should have extended duration compared to the "triggered" charm effect. That's a very simple tweak, though, and I fully expect it to be applied soon enough.

Overall I'd say that your gripe is more with "charm on call" duration than anything else. Charm on attack (or more precisely, on triggering "weak" effect) works so well with fast weapons I personally consider it overpowered and in need of a nerf. "point 0" is confirmed to be on the "to fix" list.

Originally posted by Лобстер:

don't try to fix it. You can't. You can make anything, but this effect is just cursed. Replace it, remove Aphrodite from the game, do anything except trying to fix it

That's really not your call to make, especially in such categorical terms. You got a bit too carried away - all of your points are easily adressable.

[Bopple]

As others have said, Charm on Weak is very powerful. It's just Aphrodite's Aid is too weak, or not working as intended.

[Jlobster]

Originally posted by Kill'em ALL:

Mate, it's patently obvious that you wrote the post while angry and in a need to vent your frustration. That's really not the most constructive way to communicate. Try and slow down a bit, it's just a game after all.

Idk what you talking about, calling this post "not constructive" - I'm not yelling "CHARM IS BAAAD, I GOT KILLED BECAUSE I COULDN'T USE IT, WAAA" - I'm trying to explain why Charm is bad. And you didn't convince me that I'm wrong with it. Even more, you agreed on most of my points, don't you see?

Originally posted by Kill'em ALL:

What is more important is that the charm STOPS the enemy from doing something - namely attacking you. It's a nice breather, especially in a crowd.

And in the same time

Originally posted by Kill'em ALL:

That depends on the enemy but for slower ones yes, that is true. Personally I think it'd be better for charm to last until the enemy performs a single attack, not for a set duration of time, but that's a balancing issue.

You see, it's nonsense. Charm is not giving you a respite in the battle because it lasts shortly. There are many better CC effects in game - Festive Fog, Rapture, Jolt, Stagger, etc. Only exception is when you can Charm many enemies at once by using quick attacks and ability that turns Weak enemies to Charmed. But here is another problem - it's not really caused by Charm itself. You find this ability good because it create crowd control, not because it turns enemies to friends.

I understand that I'm talking very harsh here and my demand on removing Charm is looking too categorical indeed. But this is what it is - Charming effect was, is and will be bad in any real time game because of it's very idea. Player don't need to make friends of their weak enemies. It's like to make a knife from bread that you wanna cut. Only exception is the bosses, because they have superior abilities. But here's the problem - there are only one boss fight in the whole game where Charmed boss can really help you to kill another one. Although, you can use Charm to stun any boss and punch him hard while they are can't hurt you, but again - it's not the point of the ability.

It's really would be better to change this Aphrodite's effect to something else. There are plenty of good ideas for effects that could replace Charm and would fit the Goddess of Love.

[Kill'em ALL]

Originally posted by Лобстер:

you didn't convince me that I'm wrong with it

I don't aim to convince you, I am providing a counter-argument to your suggestions so that it does not seem like something everyone agrees on. All the threads posted in "suggestions" are ultimately aimed at the developers, not other players.

Originally posted by Лобстер:

you agreed on most of my points, don't you see?

No, I did not. Just because I acknowledge your point of view does not mean I agree with it. Pretty much the only things on which I agree with you is that "point 0" is a bug (but so do devs, so it's a moot point already) and that charm effect triggered by Call should last longer.

Originally posted by Лобстер:

Charm is not giving you a respite in the battle because it lasts shortly.

The useful length of the effect is relevant to the pacing of the game itself. In many games something that lasts 5 seconds would be completely irrelevant. In Hades even 0.5 seconds can be a game-changer due to how fast everything is happening. I maintain that Charm effect provides breathing room, if only because you have one less enemy to dodge while trying to get to a better position. If an enemy actually smacks another in the time he is charmed it's a nice bonus but I don't mind if he "only" stops actively attacking me.

Originally posted by Лобстер:

You find this ability good because it create crowd control, not because it turns enemies to friends.

So it's a CC stun with a twist, why would I mind? I ultimately find every ability useful or not based on whether or not increases my killing power, doesn't mean it all has to be boiled down to the bare-bone essentials. If we'd like to just focus on what the effect does then instead of a "rapture", "poison", "doom" etc. we could just replace everything with "short stun", "long stun", "quick dps", "slow dps", "delayed damage" etc. I don't think most people would find it a better solution than the current one.

I don't see a point in further nitpicking at your post - you are entilted to having your own opinion, as I am to mine. We've both expressed them and just happen to disagree in that particular case. The devs read these forums and so will certainly take feedback into consideration. Cheers.

[Bopple]

But he does have a point. While it is named 'charm', it doesn't work as one, but as stun, rather.
It is not about competency, but about consistency.

[Bopple]

I guess maybe it's more consistent to rename it 'fascinate' and let them wander around, doing nothing, with a longer duration.

[Jlobster]

So, I've experiensed the power of Weak'n'Love build and this - is most broken and illegal thing in Underworld. But still, it's not because of the Charm itself, but because Hades' chuckles is OP and I died because it's too funny and I lost my attention to battle it's a quick CC. There are not profit from Charm itself, Charmed enemies aren't helping. You can, like, replace Aphrodite with Hephaestus, give him effects of Melting (same Weak) and Hammer Strike(simple stun) and it will be the same thing. If Supergiant will fix the Charm, there will be no profit from it at all. And Weak effect is not powerfull enough to carry Aphrodite on itself. So in the end, Goddess of Love will fulfill my prophecy and become the most useless Olympian and Charm will become the most useless effect in the Underworld. It's inevitable.

[cuhrayzee]

I had some weird thing where I got instantly killed after attacking charmed enemy. I think the death happened once the charm effect ended. First time I was extremely confused since I was almost at full health. Next time it happened under same conditions - attacking charmed enemy, boom - coin is gone. No idea what it was, a bug or whatever but extremely weird stuff.

[Goomy]

Originally posted by cuhrayzee:

I had some weird thing where I got instantly killed after attacking charmed enemy. I think the death happened once the charm effect ended. First time I was extremely confused since I was almost at full health. Next time it happened under same conditions - attacking charmed enemy, boom - coin is gone. No idea what it was, a bug or whatever but extremely weird stuff.

Did the charmed enemy toss a bomb at you?