A few ideas about Artemis, Hermes, and God's keepsakes

[cortes-e]

Artemis' blessings should be like Hermes' blessings

Artemis is a bit of a boring goddess to me. All she does is give you critical chance and an increase of damage (except with Hunter Dash that ONLY gives a damage increase to your dash-strike). The unconventional part being mostly that they are RNG-based, and they take up a god slot for each attack that could be taken by a god with a better effect.

So, my suggestion in this section is to make Artemis blessings work like Hermes blessings and serve as a support for your other blessings. Much like Hermes, her blessings will not be able to level up via poms of power except for her aid and duo blessings. In general, I would see the following blessings changed (NOTE: X is based on rarity so Common / Rare / Epic / Heroic; also, numbers are more an example than an actual thing):

• Deadly Strike. Your attack has a X% chance to deal critical damage. Where X = (10 / 12.5 / 15 / 17.5) %. NOTE: no more extra damage increase to your main attack.
  
• Deadly Flourish. Your special has a X% chance to deal critical damage. Where X = (15 / 17.5 / 20 / 22.5) %. NOTE: no more extra damage increase to your special attack.
  
• True Shot. Your cast has a X% chance to deal critical damage. Where X = (12.5 / 15 / 17.5 / 20) %. NOTE: does not change your cast attack, nor does it increase your cast attack's damage.

The rest of her blessings, including the aid and duo blessings, may remain the same.

Add Hermes' Aid blessing

This one is just a tiny bit related to the one before. Just add an aid blessing to Hermes. Kind of weird he doesn't have one. This is what I basically have in mind:

• Hermes' Aid. Your call makes you do a long dash forward dealing X damage to any enemy passed through.

As expected, this blessing can be leveled up via poms of power.

God's keepsakes need a change

All the god keepsakes with the exception of Hermes are very boring. They all just guarantee the next boon will be of that god and you have up to 20% chance that they will offer rare boons. All of them. I understand you can equip one, then on the next zone equip another, and so have a higher chance to have a desired loadout or fill the Fates list faster, but that just leads to a long list of boring items.

My suggestion is to add "God tokens" (or god signals, god coins, god emblems, ... whatever you want to call it), that you can equip at the beginning of a run which guarantees that the first boon you get is from that god. But you can only equip one "God token" per escape attempt. This is because essentially, you would be equipping 2 keepsakes, your actual keepsake, and the god token. The limit could be lifted though.

As for the keepsakes (here I will give numbers, but they will just be examples):

• Owl Pendant (Athena). Take +(25 / 40 / 55)% less damage while your health is above 70%. NOTE: There are so many already existing keepsake effects that would be amazing for Athena's keepsake (Myrmidon Bracers, Broken Spearpoint and Evergreen Acorn), it is kinda hard to make one for her.
  
• Thunder Signet (Zeus). All blessings have a +(10 / 15 / 20)% chance to be rare or better.
  
• Conch Shell (Poseidon). All attacks knockback is increase by +(5 / 7 / 9)%. NOTE: This one was hard, and I am not quite satisfied with it, but it works.
  
• Eternal Rose (Aphrodite). Heal for +(16 / 20 / 24)% more.
  
• Adamant Arrowhead (Artemis). After dashing, your attacks have a +(2.5 / 5 / 7.5)% chance to be critical for 5 seconds. Additional dashes will only reset the counter.
  
• Blood-Filled Vial (Ares). Each time you take damage, increase your attack by +(1 / 1.5 / 2)%, but reduce your resistance by -1%. Resets on the next chamber.
  
• Overflowing Cup (Dionysus). Gain (15 / 20 / 25) more health points when picking up nectar. NOTE: Additionally, remove Premium Vintage from Dionysus' boon pool. My reasoning for this is, that this boon is mostly useful to have as early as possible on an escape attempt so that you can obtain as much nectar as possible. For example, half-way through Elysium this boon is not very useful, as you might obtain 1 more nectar at best, and unless it is Epic rarity or you have Life Affirmation from Aphrodite, it is not going to give you much more health. Plus, having this keepsake effect and Premium Vintage would just call for a broken combination.
  
• Frostbitten Horn (Demeter). Gain +(5 / 8 / 10) health every 3 encounters.

You might have noticed I didn't mention Cosmic Egg (Chaos). Well, I don't know how it could be changed, plus being able to get in a Chaos chamber for free is good enough in my opinion, add to that that there is up to a 40% (instead of just 20%) chance to get rare or better boons from Chaos, so yeah, it is pretty good plus I can't even imagine how to make it work differently.

--

Well, that is my list of ideas. Feel free to comment your own ideas, and good luck!

[lifetake]

Artemis - Boring? Her crits are some of the coolest things in the game and some of the more fun things to build with. As well being one of the strongest gods in the game with certain weapons.

Hermes - Sure but he is a support god and isn't like the other gods but nothing wrong with a call just be weird to have a tier 1 boon for one and not all

Keepsakes - These are to many people the meat of the game they allow you to actually build your run. You take them mid way through to let you force gods to refine your build. Get Poseidon cast? Force demeter to get the blizzard shot duo boon. Get Ares cast? Get Artemis to force hunting blades. Get Artemis attack or special? Force Aphrodite to get meaty crits.

They are huge to the playstyle of the game and let you actually have some consistency in the rng of the game.

[cortes-e]

1) I agree on Artemis boons being very powerful. But yeah, Artemis is boring (to me, already stated on the post). Her boons just make you deal more damage (regular boon buff), and sometimes you might deal a lot of extra damage (critical); so her crit build is mostly to attack while hoping you get as many crits as possible, there is not much "strategy" or "planning" on there.

She does have a few interesting boons though, like Exit Wounds (specially with Poseidon aspect sword or Hera aspect bow), Deadly Reversal (duo with Athena), Heart Rend (duo with Aphrodite), and Support Fire; and I don't mention her other duos because they don't affect Artemis boons themselves.

In general, her synergy is mostly with herself.

2) Although you seem to agree on this one, I don't get what you mean here? All aid boons are tier 1, no?

3) And I agree, this is why I suggest adding the "god tokens" as a sort of substitute, the limits I "imposed" are just if it is considered too broken.

My issue with the current keepsakes is that over half of them are just a copy/paste of each other with only one very minor difference. Feels like a waste of space to me.

[lifetake]

Originally posted by cortes-e:

1) I agree on Artemis boons being very powerful. But yeah, Artemis is boring (to me, already stated on the post). Her boons just make you deal more damage (regular boon buff), and sometimes you might deal a lot of extra damage (critical); so her crit build is mostly to attack while hoping you get as many crits as possible, there is not much "strategy" or "planning" on there.

She does have a few interesting boons though, like Exit Wounds (specially with Poseidon aspect sword or Hera aspect bow), Deadly Reversal (duo with Athena), Heart Rend (duo with Aphrodite), and Support Fire; and I don't mention her other duos because they don't affect Artemis boons themselves.

In general, her synergy is mostly with herself.

2) Although you seem to agree on this one, I don't get what you mean here? All aid boons are tier 1, no?

3) And I agree, this is why I suggest adding the "god tokens" as a sort of substitute, the limits I "imposed" are just if it is considered too broken.

My issue with the current keepsakes is that over half of them are just a copy/paste of each other with only one very minor difference. Feels like a waste of space to me.

Yea I think Artemis' purpose it to be the god that can rekt alone it fits with her lore that SGG has embraced. I personally love it as it provides a way for me to play aorund. Cause at the end of the day most of these boons just mean more dmg with a couple exceptions.

2) Yea all aid boons are tier 1. Its just that hermes doesn't have any other tier 1 boons. There isn't a hermes attack, special, cast or dash. So if he just randomly has a call its kinda random. And personally I'd rather keep him to not having a tier 1 boon. I like him as the support god and the unique things he can offer you in that. A call would be fine just weird that he wouldn't have others.

3) Yea I saw your god token suggestion and it doesn't sit well with me because of two things. One the more "optimal" way to play is to not take a god keepsake at the start but change out after Tartarus and Asphodel for a god keepsake to help force a build from what you have been given. Forcing a build from the start one makes runs boring and two is just way weaker as you need to work with the gods you have been given which is only 4 from the list of gods(not including hermes) and not all of them. So having it from the start one feels completely awful in that no I don't think the game should be saying you should be forcing a god from the start

Secondly the limit. The whole point is to modify your run mid run. So the limit just sucks in conjunction with the start of run take. Yes you suggested not having the limit possibly and I'm here to say most definitely.

[cortes-e]

1) I guess it "makes sense", but I still feel Artemis would be much better as a support god, like Hermes.

2) Technically, Hermes has attack, special, cast and dash boons, those would be: Swift Strike (main attack), Swift Flourish (special), Flurry Cast / Auto Reaload (cast), and Drift Dash (dash). Is a bit "rough" (specially with Flurry Cast and Auto Reload as they depend on which you have equipped, Infernal Soul or Stygian Soul, respectively), but they do serve those roles to an extent.

Plus, Hermes is weirder in that most of his boons are "tier 1" (by default), while 2 of his boons are tier 3 (or legendary) boons, but he has no tier 2 boons.

3) I see. I can agree to that. I just hope we have more keepsake variety.

[lifetake]

Originally posted by cortes-e:

1) I guess it "makes sense", but I still feel Artemis would be much better as a support god, like Hermes.

2) Technically, Hermes has attack, special, cast and dash boons, those would be: Swift Strike (main attack), Swift Flourish (special), Flurry Cast / Auto Reaload (cast), and Drift Dash (dash). Is a bit "rough" (specially with Flurry Cast and Auto Reload as they depend on which you have equipped, Infernal Soul or Stygian Soul, respectively), but they do serve those roles to an extent.

Plus, Hermes is weirder in that most of his boons are "tier 1" (by default), while 2 of his boons are tier 3 (or legendary) boons, but he has no tier 2 boons.

3) I see. I can agree to that. I just hope we have more keepsake variety.

Hermes - But none of those actually become your attack, special, ect. They just support it. So more attack speed for your thunder strike. And in that case he does have a thing that supports calls being second wind which gives you movement speed and doge chance

[cortes-e]

Originally posted by lifetake:

Hermes - But none of those actually become your attack, special, ect. They just support it. So more attack speed for your thunder strike. And in that case he does have a thing that supports calls being second wind which gives you movement speed and doge chance

Sure they don't take a slot, but with the exception of Flurry Cast / Auto Reload, they have the naming convention of boons that do take a slot:

• Swift Strike => Deadly/Divine/Lightning/... Strike.
  
• Swift Flourish => Deadly/Divine/Thunder/... Flourish.
  
• Drift Dash => Hunter/Divine/Thunder/... Dash.

In general, Hermes boons are only a direct increase of DPS, unlike other gods that usually give a direct damage boost, and give utility (weak, stun, chill, etc.), external forms of damage (doom, hangover, lightning, etc.) or both (deflection and knockback). Artemis is similar in that she only gives an straight DPS increase, which is mostly the why of my first suggestion.

And Second Wind would be much more similar to Billowing Strength from Zeus, which gives you a damage boost for several seconds after using a call, but they are not a call themselves. Plus, Second Wind and Billowing Strength don't support calls, but rather calls support those boons.

[lifetake]

Originally posted by cortes-e:

Originally posted by lifetake:

Hermes - But none of those actually become your attack, special, ect. They just support it. So more attack speed for your thunder strike. And in that case he does have a thing that supports calls being second wind which gives you movement speed and doge chance

Sure they don't take a slot, but with the exception of Flurry Cast / Auto Reload, they have the naming convention of boons that do take a slot:

• Swift Strike => Deadly/Divine/Lightning/... Strike.
  
• Swift Flourish => Deadly/Divine/Thunder/... Flourish.
  
• Drift Dash => Hunter/Divine/Thunder/... Dash.

In general, Hermes boons are only a direct increase of DPS, unlike other gods that usually give a direct damage boost, and give utility (weak, stun, chill, etc.), external forms of damage (doom, hangover, lightning, etc.) or both (deflection and knockback). Artemis is similar in that she only gives an straight DPS increase, which is mostly the why of my first suggestion.

And Second Wind would be much more similar to Billowing Strength from Zeus, which gives you a damage boost for several seconds after using a call, but they are not a call themselves. Plus, Second Wind and Billowing Strength don't support calls, but rather calls support those boons.

I mean we could just call it Hermes aid if you really wanted to.

Its just to note that hermes is a completely different god to the others. He isn't in the same pool of room rewards as other gods. He doesn't have actual tier 1 boons only having tier 2 boons and legendaries.

Hermes design isn't made to be normal. He is supposed to support. You can have Aphrodite attack and hermes attack at the same time. You can't do that with others. He is much like chaos which also offers attack special and cast boosts along with other things. Does chaos have a straight up call upgrader? No because its not exactly a need as a support style god.

And Hermes is by far not just dps. Yes his boons which look like tier 1 boons are dps increasers are, but those aren't tier 1 boons. They are the same as every other boon he can offer(minus legendaries). And if you look at them that way everything is support and in their place. He can buff your attack. He can buff your special. He can buff your cast. He can buff your dash. He can buff your call. He can buff your move speed. He can buff your defense. He buffs things and is never a build around and that's the point of him.

And while artemis is dps increases she is her own variety. She has her own weakness. Her weakness is she has the worst curse in the game for applying privileged status. But her design is around making your attacks have dramatic dps increases.

Hermes isn't like artemis. He is revolved around buffing as a support god. He isn't just dps increase like you claim. He is all around there to support your build.

[cortes-e]

Originally posted by lifetake:

I mean we could just call it Hermes aid if you really wanted to.

I don't quite understand what you are referring to here, but I assume you are talking about Second Wind, in that case:

Yeah, if you change the name of Billowing Strength to Zeus' Aid I would be all in with changing Second Wind to Hermes' Aid.

Originally posted by lifetake:

Its just to note that hermes is a completely different god to the others. He isn't in the same pool of room rewards as other gods. He doesn't have actual tier 1 boons only having tier 2 boons and legendaries.

Hermes design isn't made to be normal. He is supposed to support. You can have Aphrodite attack and hermes attack at the same time. You can't do that with others. He is much like chaos which also offers attack special and cast boosts along with other things. Does chaos have a straight up call upgrader? No because its not exactly a need as a support style god.

Ok, this is a bit too much since you jumped from Hermes to Chaos, but sure, here:

There is no actual rule that says neither Hermes or Chaos can't have a call because they are "supporting gods" (terminology we players/fans use).

And I will de-rail even more: I didn't suggest a "Chaos' Aid" boon because in-game Chaos says he does not impose his powers unto you unlike the other gods, heavily implying that what Chaos "offers" is just an enhancement of Zagreus own powers. So, adding a call to Chaos would make that line a complete lie, since a call is literally the power of the god. And, funny enough, Hermes offers his own powers (the power of swiftness), so Hermes offering a call to Zagreus is not all that weird lore-wise. Even then, you can send the lore to hell and add a call to Chaos even if it makes little sense with what we know of the character, because there is no actual rule preventing it.

Originally posted by lifetake:

And Hermes is by far not just dps. Yes his boons which look like tier 1 boons are dps increasers are, but those aren't tier 1 boons. They are the same as every other boon he can offer(minus legendaries). And if you look at them that way everything is support and in their place. He can buff your attack. He can buff your special. He can buff your cast. He can buff your dash. He can buff your call. He can buff your move speed. He can buff your defense. He buffs things and is never a build around and that's the point of him.

I was talking specifically about the "Strike, Flourish, Cast, and Dash" boons, not all of Hermes boons in general.But I can see were your confusion is though, as I did said "in general", but I was referring to those boons, you can see it because that "in general" is directly below a list were I talk those boons. This is what I said:

Sure they don't take a slot, but with the exception of Flurry Cast / Auto Reload, they have the naming convention of boons that do take a slot:
Swift Strike => Deadly/Divine/Lightning/... Strike.
Swift Flourish => Deadly/Divine/Thunder/... Flourish.
Drift Dash => Hunter/Divine/Thunder/... Dash.
In general, Hermes boons are only a direct increase of DPS, unlike other gods that usually give a direct damage boost, and give utility (weak, stun, chill, etc.), external forms of damage (doom, hangover, lightning, etc.) or both (deflection and knockback). Artemis is similar in that she only gives an straight DPS increase, which is mostly the why of my first suggestion.

I am talking exclusively of the strike, flourish, cast, and dash boons that all gods have (including, as you said, Chaos). Although I do have to correct me: his drift dash does not offer an increase in DPS at all, so I did generalize a bit much there.

Originally posted by lifetake:

And while artemis is dps increases she is her own variety. She has her own weakness. Her weakness is she has the worst curse in the game for applying privileged status. But her design is around making your attacks have dramatic dps increases.

What does that weakness has to do with my suggestion? Why would that weakness make my suggestion unviable?
What about that design you are talking about makes my suggestion unviable? She can still be a goddess designed around increasing your DPS, while also serving as a supporting goddess.

Originally posted by lifetake:

Hermes isn't like artemis. He is revolved around buffing as a support god. He isn't just dps increase like you claim. He is all around there to support your build.

That is exactly my suggestion. To make Artemis like Hermes because she is already revolved around buffing your DPS much like Hermes and Chaos buffs your DPS and utility. Basically, Artemis boons already work as support boons, with the exception of the strike/flourish/cast/dash boons that take a slot, when they could just support a god within that slot.

I also didn't claim he was only DPS increase.

TL; DR:

I can understand you don't like my suggestions (is fine really), but can you give me an objective explanation of why my suggestions wouldn't work? Here you seem to be grasping at straws to try and convince me why Artemis can't be a supporting goddess like Hermes, or why Hermes can't have a call boon.

[lifetake]

Okay lets start with Hermes and why he is a support god much like chaos and doesn't need a "call"

He is not in the same pool as the other gods being a tier 2 reward along with hammer, heart, gold, and poms. and has the same type of rule as hammer with limiting the amount of times you can get him (being 3 instead of 2)

While you can get him alongside other gods and even convert other gods boon to him using fated authority he will never show up in a elite room which hammer follows similiarly while pom, heart, and gold only show up as elites in styx or erebus. The only "elite" hermes boon you can get is in charons shop in styx for the 500 gold price that he always has.

As I've stated his boons act completely differently to the others. Not ever being a tier 1 boon and taking one of those slots and always supplementing. Yes he has things like swift trike which has the same name pattern as the others but that is more a indication of its usage and not that this is your attack.

To fully explain in example if you had Artemis attack and then were offered Aphrodite attack. The Aphrodite attack would replace the Artemis attack. This is not the case with Hermes and instead is just an additional buff

Now if Hermes had a call that completely breaks that rule. All of a sudden he has a tier 1 boon that goes in the main abilities and it just doesn't make sense. This is why I brought up second wind and said we could call it Hermes aid in line with the other calls if that would make you feel better since all of his boons that directly synergize with the things of attack, special, cast or dash all do that, synergize not replace or become the attack, special, cast or dash. So Second wind does that. It synergizes with the call that you have. Yes it is much like Zeus' call synergy boon he has, but that isn't a problem in my mind since both aren't main line things either.

My biggest problem with giving hermes a call is that would be the only main line ability he has in the game.


Now on to Artemis

First up to get personal prefrences aside. We don't need a 4th support style boon selecter. We have Hammers, we have Hermes, and we have Chaos we don't need a third in my opinion. But that is my personal preference and not an argument actually

Okay away from personal opinions.
If you make Artemis like Hermes all of a sudden you are taking a bunch out of the game. Her duo boons which both Hunting blades and Crystal clarity are basically necessities for the run. Yes those could get buffed in some way but that's just nuts.

Next she literally has a boon already that gives all your attacks crit chance. You're just stepping on toes at that point.

Next what is the difference between her crit and Ares doom? Like yea for 1.1 seconds doom applys a curse for privileged which is nice, but it really is just damage at the end of the day. Like yea she has more things revolving around curse than ares doom, but they both are just damage. One requires you to play slow(doom) and one requires you to play with big damage. They both have their playstyles.

And whats the difference between her crit and Dio's hangover? They both deal damage. Yea hangover is over time still just damage at the end of the day

And whats the difference between her crit and Zeus chain/lighting? They both deal damage. Yea Zeus's stuff just hits aoe but it literally is just damage at the end of the day. This one doesn't even have a curse attached to it(only unlocked with a tier 2 boon like Artemis)

Basically what I'm getting at is it just seems like you're hating on crit for no reason. I can literally do what you did to Artemis with the other gods

Dio - Your attack adds hangover on the enemy
Aphrodite - your attack puts weak on the enemy
Ares - Your attack puts doom on the enemy
Demeter - your attack puts chill on the enemy

To conclude both. There is no objective way to say that no Hermes can't have a call and Artemis can't be a support god like Hermes. Because guess what things can change. I can suggest that all boons become passives(like I basically did) and there are now zero mainline boons with everything just converted to passives.

The argument is how much are you changing the game. Not that it can't work.

[cortes-e]

Originally posted by lifetake:

Okay lets start with Hermes and why he is a support god much like chaos and doesn't need a "call"

[...]

Now if Hermes had a call that completely breaks that rule. [...]

[...]

• Hermes is a tier 2 reward, but his boons are tier 1 boons by default, except the legendary ones that are tier 3.
  
• Giving him a call wouldn't break any "rule". It might be a little weird, but that would be it. And is fine to be against it because it feels "weird", but don't make long, empty explanations on why giving Hermes a call would break an imaginary rule you self-imposed.
  
• I already explained why Second Wind could never be "Hermes Aid", and is simply because Billowing Strength would have to be "Zeus' 2nd Aid" as it works exactly the same as Second Wind, just with power, not speed + dodge. In this case you are literally grasping at straws. Also, and again, Second Wind does not synergize with the call, the call synergizes with Second Wind, in order to make the most use of Second Wind, you want to use the call as many times as possible, ergo, not filling it all the way up (which is what all calls want you to do as they are considerably stronger than using them 4 or 5 times in their weak versions).
  
• Hermes already has main ability boons, they just don't take a slot.

Originally posted by lifetake:

Now on to Artemis

[...]

Basically what I'm getting at is it just seems like you're hating on crit for no reason. I can literally do what you did to Artemis with the other gods

Dio - Your attack adds hangover on the enemy
Aphrodite - your attack puts weak on the enemy
Ares - Your attack puts doom on the enemy
Demeter - your attack puts chill on the enemy

• I never suggested for her duo boons to be removed, nor for them to be nerfed. Don't even understand were is this coming from?
  
• Yes, Artemis has a boon that increases crit chance for all attacks, much like Hermes has a boon that increases your overall speed. I don't understand why I am stepping on toes in this point? If anything, it furthers support my claim that Artemis is perfect as a support goddess. Even her legendary boon is a perfect supporting boon similar to Hermes' legendaries.
  
• The difference between Artemis' crit and Ares' doom (Dio's hangover and Zeus' lightning as well for that matter) is, to be fair, subjective, but here it is:
  
  • Hangover, doom and lightning do not rely on your damage, they have their own damage; they are indirect damage increase. Then you have boons that change their behavior, giving you a different strategy for the different boons you pick.
    
  • Crit relies on your damage to deal even more damage, it is a direct damage increase. And there is barely any boon that changes how it "works", they all increase it's damage or chance directly, with only 1 regular Artemis boon (Hunter's Mark) and 2 duo boons (Deadly Reversal and Heart Rend) that change how you play with crit as they either encourage you to constantly change targets, deflect frequently, or apply weak, respectively. There is not much strategy when making a crit build other than which boons to pick.
• I am not hating on crit. I just think, as I said before, that it barely offers any strategy unlike the rest of god mechanics.

Originally posted by lifetake:

To conclude both. There is no objective way to say that no Hermes can't have a call and Artemis can't be a support god like Hermes. Because guess what things can change. I can suggest that all boons become passives(like I basically did) and there are now zero mainline boons with everything just converted to passives.

The argument is how much are you changing the game. Not that it can't work.

I am not changing the game much honestly:

• Artemis would be a support goddess like Hermes but she would still offer all of her current boons (including her call and duo boons).
  
  • The only real change I am asking for here is that her main boons would no longer give a direct damage increase and simply add critical chance to the attacks. But this is not much of a change, really.
    
  • Artemis becoming part of the same pool of rewards as Hermes (what seems to be your fear), is not really on my plans for her. Although, I have to admit I wouldn't mind.
• Hermes would have a call.
  
• God keepsakes would be more diverse in their effects (offering more ways to play), and add "god tokens" (or whatever you want to call it) to fill the role they currently do. This barely counts as a change, honestly.

[lifetake]

an imaginary rule you self-imposed.

The rule exists because he doesn't have any main line tier 1 boons. This would be the only one. He isn't like the other gods for all the reasons I stated. And he shouldn't pushed to be like them.

I never suggested for her duo boons to be removed, nor for them to be nerfed. Don't even understand were is this coming from?

duo boons. You can only get duo boons from gods that you have a mainline boon from each (with more restrictions for others). This is so that you have to manage your mainline boons to correctly optimize the duo boons you would get. So if every boon Artemis has is a passive yes all her duo boons would be removed.

Unless you want to let passives let you get duo boons which is changing the game a lot and the whole dynamic of what the games duo boon system is about.

There is not much strategy when making a crit build other than which boons to pick.

I am not hating on crit. I just think, as I said before, that it barely offers any strategy unlike the rest of god mechanics.

Boon picking is the main point of the game. And there is a lot you have to think about when building cirt in that aspect. Your strategy with crit is building your primary damage up. And we have to figure out how to do this successfully with the gods we are given. There is obviously chaos dmg ups, but we need to get privileged status up and we have to worry about getting those and getting the right boons. So don't downplay it as just picking the right boons because that is the main point with building around every boon mechanic in the game.

Artemis would be a support goddess like Hermes but she would still offer all of her current boons (including her call and duo boons).
The only real change I am asking for here is that her main boons would no longer give a direct damage increase and simply add critical chance to the attacks. But this is not much of a change, really.
Artemis becoming part of the same pool of rewards as Hermes (what seems to be your fear), is not really on my plans for her. Although, I have to admit I wouldn't mind.
Hermes would have a call.
God keepsakes would be more diverse in their effects (offering more ways to play), and add "god tokens" (or whatever you want to call it) to fill the role they currently do. This barely counts as a change, honestly.

Changing a god to support changes the game play a bunch. One that means she can show up every run without fail

2 yes her duo boons would be removed as I explained.

3 God tokens changes the whole system a bunch. Taking a god keepsake means you no longer have a combat keepsake to better yourself. Its risk reward. If you wanted to make God tokens a keepsake and you just chose a god I'm fine with that. Don't think it be necessary, but fine idea that doesn't change much. But your first iteration of god tokens is a big change and just removes that risk reward mechanic.

[cortes-e]

Ok, we are only repeating ourselves at this point and getting nowhere, but here:

• The rule about Hermes (or any "support god") not being able to get a call does not exist, you assumed it and preach it as fact.
  
• The rule of duo boons you explain is also one you assumed. Letting "passive boons" give you duo boons wouldn't be a "big change" as you claim, as you still need to fill the requirements (boons) to unlock the possibility of getting a duo boon.
  
• Boon picking is definitely not the main point of the game. The main point of the game is defeating Hades.
  
• There is not a lot to think about when making crit builds other than how to deal the most damage most consistently. The "hardest" part of a crit build is getting the correct boon from Artemis for your weapon and it's aspect (Chiron is better with Deadly Flourish, while the rest of bow aspects are better with Deadly Strike, for example).

Originally posted by lifetake:

Changing a god to support changes the game play a bunch. One that means she can show up every run without fail

2 yes her duo boons would be removed as I explained.

1. Or she might not appear on some runs like Chaos? Changing a god to support would mean a change to game play, yes. But not a huge change.
   
2. What you explained is your own assumption of the mechanic. There is no need for her duo boons to be removed if she ever became a support god.

Originally posted by lifetake:

3 God tokens changes the whole system a bunch. Taking a god keepsake means you no longer have a combat keepsake to better yourself. Its risk reward. If you wanted to make God tokens a keepsake and you just chose a god I'm fine with that. Don't think it be necessary, but fine idea that doesn't change much. But your first iteration of god tokens is a big change and just removes that risk reward mechanic.

This one is a contradicting mess.

1. I suggested the god keepsakes change since I really wish they weren't just carbon-copies of each other, and added there the "god tokens" to compensate and keep their current effects. Of course, exactly because "god tokens" would be like equipping 2 keepsakes is why I suggested you would only be able to use one "god token" per escape attempt (I did say I wouldn't mind if we could switch them). But you said you would prefer it if you could use different god tokens per escape attempt (do note I have not changed the first post).
   
2. Here you are complaining that my suggestion is eliminating the risk-reward aspect of god keepsakes by adding god tokens and changing the god keepsakes to be more battle-oriented, when ultimately, it was you who wanted god tokens to be able to be changed multiple times per escape attempt. When I first suggested it, god tokens would only be usable once per escape attempt. But the contradiction does not end there:
   
3. Now you are suggesting for the god token to be it's own keepsake, letting you choose 1 god when you equip it, but this has a tiny problem: you can only equip the same keepsake once per escape attempt, meaning you will only be able to force a god once. Which is exactly what you complained about the first time. But hey, at least when you equip it, you cannot use another keepsake.

But very well, I wouldn't mind this either. I just want god keepsakes (and keepsakes in general) to have a bit more variety and offer more game play options than just "next boon is going to be of this god and have better chances to be better".

[Parzival2436]

I love the Boon Artemis gives that fires off an arrow for every attack, special or cast. its really amazing with the fists or gun.