I'm new to this sort of progression--not sure I like it.

[Captain Wolf]

Dying during a run used to be a punishment for me. In this game, dying just makes me stronger. What is the incentive to stay alive? In fact, it appears like dying is mandatory for a successful outcome.

It seems like everyone will win no matter what if one just keeps playing. The game will just continue to get easier and easier with each death. This will make the player feel like his skills have improved while the improvements are really just a function of leveling up instead.
Is this a valid complaint? Does anyone understand what I am concerned about? I don't mean to be a gaming nihilist, but what's the point?

[westshadowknight]

After you 'beat' the game, you can unlock hard mode which gives you the ability to make your runs harder. I believe you could also effectively turn off the mirror in that mode.

[Condred]

You might be overthinking this.

In games you find fun, you'll generally want to test how good you are, and (usually, at least) the best way to do that is to go as far as you can without dying - that's an incentive to stay alive.

These games also usually have a story, which will progress slower when you die - that's another incentive to stay alive.

Do you enjoy being sent back to beginning after reaching the final boss? If not, that's an incentive to stay alive.

You'll also face different and more difficult enemies along the way, and dealing with these enemies would be tough with just starter weapons or abilities; surviving for longer rewards you with more upgrade points, that's an incentive for staying alive.

This game really isn't so far off other games with a progression system; if you tried the final level in other games with just starting abilities and weapons, it'll probably be extremely difficult. Likewise with Hades, you probably won't be able to clear every zone with no upgrades. The difference here is that you can't upgrade yourself until you die, whereas in other games you get your upgrades as you go along.

[Captain Wolf]

Originally posted by Condred:

You might be overthinking this.

In games you find fun, you'll generally want to test how good you are, and (usually, at least) the best way to do that is to go as far as you can without dying - that's an incentive to stay alive.

These games also usually have a story, which will progress slower when you die - that's another incentive to stay alive.

Do you enjoy being sent back to beginning after reaching the final boss? If not, that's an incentive to stay alive.

You'll also face different and more difficult enemies along the way, and dealing with these enemies would be tough with just starter weapons or abilities; surviving for longer rewards you with more upgrade points, that's an incentive for staying alive.

This game really isn't so far off other games with a progression system; if you tried the final level in other games with just starting abilities and weapons, it'll probably be extremely difficult. Likewise with Hades, you probably won't be able to clear every zone with no upgrades. The difference here is that you can't upgrade yourself until you die, whereas in other games you get your upgrades as you go along.

I really like this response, and it gives me another way to look at things. I'm coming from a Spellunky mentality where death means go back and try again( but you are not keeping a thing that could help you in the next run).

[Nibbie]

Originally posted by Captain Wolf:

I really like this response, and it gives me another way to look at things. I'm coming from a Spellunky mentality where death means go back and try again( but you are not keeping a thing that could help you in the next run).

This is the key difference between a "roguelike" and a "roguelite". A roguelike starts you off the same way every run, the only thing you keep is your knowledge and skill. A roguelite gives you meta progression between runs, skills or currencies that carry over after death, allowing you to start your next run stronger then your previous run. The meta progression means that even if you fail, you are one step closer to succeeding, not only in terms of skill and knowledge, but stats and unlocks too. While a maxed out Zagreus is way stronger than your start, making the game a ton easier, you unlock difficulty options after your first win, so you can choose and customize them to allow you to keep the difficulty at whatever you find fun.

It should also be noted that dying in a run is *not* mandatory for success or progress in this game, or most other roguelites, it just makes it easier. In fact, I think there is special dialogue for if you win your very first run. At some point when I was playing the game regularly, after dozens of wins, I tried a fresh save file to see how much of my success was due to my skill and how much was due to the permanent upgrades. I didn't win, but I did make it to second phase of the final boss, so skill alone can carry you far.