Achievements or rather lack of for the hardest optional tasks, what gives?

[Radwar99]

Achievements should be for completing hard tasks, the harder the task the more deserving of an achievement, yet you get achievements for something as simple as "Earn access to and enter the Administrative Chamber", but you get nothing for beating Hades version of Pact of Punishment.
You get achievements for completing Skelly's first 2 Pact of Punishment's objectives but you get none for the hardest one which is completing a run with a pact of punishment of 32 which is incredibly hard to do.
You get an achievement for getting just one forged bond but you get none for getting them all.

I seriously don't get this.

[TheSwanDragon]

From a Q&A with the devs:

We have several tough achievements planned. But we don't like creating achievements for the absolute top end of game difficulty, and would rather players explore that out of intrinsic interest rather than getting super frustrated bashing their heads against achievements that feel hopelessly impossible.

[Nibbie]

From what I know, the point is that they wanted achievements to be reasonable to get for most players. There are ingame trackers for each of the things you mentioned, so you still have proof of your accomplishments, but I suppose they wanted the reason people were doing those hard challenges to be "because I want to", rather than "because there is an achievement for it".

edit; yeah, ^that

[Radwar99]

W

Originally posted by TheSwanDragon:

From a Q&A with the devs:

We have several tough achievements planned. But we don't like creating achievements for the absolute top end of game difficulty, and would rather players explore that out of intrinsic interest rather than getting super frustrated bashing their heads against achievements that feel hopelessly impossible.

Well that sucks. I rarely get all achievements in a game, If I can't do the task so be it, but if I do manage to do something really difficult then I expect to get one. I don't agree at all with the developers but oh well.

[C4RNIVOR3]

In addition to Swan's post, this was brought up here on steam forum as well, and it's acknowledged not everyone will agree with the design choice

Originally posted by kid_zomb:

Yes, we felt the 32-heat Skelly prize was its own reward. 32-heat clears are beyond the ability of many players, and in general we're not big on Achievements that are extraordinarily difficult even for skillful, invested players. This is just part of our design philosophy when it comes to Achievements and of course it's OK to disagree with it, I'm just explaining the reason for the omission.

As a more extreme example, we could have had "Clear the game on 50 Heat with each weapon", something that is theoretically possible; but almost no one would be able to do that, and if you're someone who enjoys earning Achievements, what might happen is you would repeatedly try to get that Achievement then eventually quit the game in frustration. We would much rather you leave this game happy than angry. The thing about Achievements is they can create a certain pressure to play a game a certain way, and we don't want our Achievement design to have an oversized influence on players' experience. The game is already filled with systems that create incentives to push yourself a bit if you want to.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/1145360/discussions/0/2841165820084105169/#c2841165820084191302

The most notable part being "The thing about Achievements is they can create a certain pressure to play a game a certain way, and we don't want our Achievement design to have an oversized influence on players' experience" as I think this is really the primary point behind their reasoning.

Edit; I do also want to note that the devs did keep tabs through early access on the weapons, boons and heat levels and other factors that players interacted with, so they may have come from the conclusion in their data that the fraction of players achieving 32+ heat clears was too small for them to feel okay with turning that into an achievement. No idea about any possible reasoning for some of the other things mentioned in op though.

[Radwar99]

Originally posted by C4RNIVOR3:

In addition to Swan's post, this was brought up here on steam forum as well, and it's acknowledged not everyone will agree with the design choice

Originally posted by kid_zomb:

Yes, we felt the 32-heat Skelly prize was its own reward. 32-heat clears are beyond the ability of many players, and in general we're not big on Achievements that are extraordinarily difficult even for skillful, invested players. This is just part of our design philosophy when it comes to Achievements and of course it's OK to disagree with it, I'm just explaining the reason for the omission.

As a more extreme example, we could have had "Clear the game on 50 Heat with each weapon", something that is theoretically possible; but almost no one would be able to do that, and if you're someone who enjoys earning Achievements, what might happen is you would repeatedly try to get that Achievement then eventually quit the game in frustration. We would much rather you leave this game happy than angry. The thing about Achievements is they can create a certain pressure to play a game a certain way, and we don't want our Achievement design to have an oversized influence on players' experience. The game is already filled with systems that create incentives to push yourself a bit if you want to.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/1145360/discussions/0/2841165820084105169/#c2841165820084191302

The most notable part being "The thing about Achievements is they can create a certain pressure to play a game a certain way, and we don't want our Achievement design to have an oversized influence on players' experience" as I think this is really the primary point behind their reasoning.

Edit; I do also want to note that the devs did keep tabs through early access on the weapons, boons and heat levels and other factors that players interacted with, so they may have come from the conclusion in their data that the fraction of players achieving 32+ heat clears was too small for them to feel okay with turning that into an achievement. No idea about any possible reasoning for some of the other things mentioned in op though.

"achieving 32+ heat clears was too small for them to feel okay with turning that into an achievement."

But that's the problem. An achievement shouldn't only be about what % of people that manages to unlock it, it's also about "heck if someone manages to do this then give him an achievement, he deserves it."

Achievements aren't supposed to be about everyone, yes most of them should be possible for the majority of players but some of them should reward those that goes the extra mile or has incredible skills. Why shouldn't they be rewarded? Like I said in my previous post, I rarely get all achievements in a game and if there are some I can't get, then so be it, it's not the end of the world, but don't punish those that wants to go the extra mile or has mad skills.

[spammy]

Originally posted by Radwar99:

Originally posted by C4RNIVOR3:

In addition to Swan's post, this was brought up here on steam forum as well, and it's acknowledged not everyone will agree with the design choice


https://steamcommunity.com/app/1145360/discussions/0/2841165820084105169/#c2841165820084191302

The most notable part being "The thing about Achievements is they can create a certain pressure to play a game a certain way, and we don't want our Achievement design to have an oversized influence on players' experience" as I think this is really the primary point behind their reasoning.

Edit; I do also want to note that the devs did keep tabs through early access on the weapons, boons and heat levels and other factors that players interacted with, so they may have come from the conclusion in their data that the fraction of players achieving 32+ heat clears was too small for them to feel okay with turning that into an achievement. No idea about any possible reasoning for some of the other things mentioned in op though.

"achieving 32+ heat clears was too small for them to feel okay with turning that into an achievement."

But that's the problem. An achievement shouldn't only be about what % of people that manages to unlock it, it's also about "heck if someone manages to do this then give him an achievement, he deserves it."

Achievements aren't supposed to be about everyone, yes most of them should be possible for the majority of players but some of them should reward those that goes the extra mile or has incredible skills. Why shouldn't they be rewarded? Like I said in my previous post, I rarely get all achievements in a game and if there are some I can't get, then so be it, it's not the end of the world, but don't punish those that wants to go the extra mile or has mad skills.

it seems like you're making this about yourself. maybe some people really want to get all achievements? the completionists are exactly why we can't have an achievement for say, clearing 64 heat. the people who want to hunt for achievements are not at fault here, but it's just what has been said. the developers would much rather have players leave happy then angry that they can't beat 50 heat all aspects or something like that. also how is the lack of an achievement "punishing" someone who's willing to go the extra mile?

[Radwar99]

Originally posted by spammy:

Originally posted by Radwar99:

"achieving 32+ heat clears was too small for them to feel okay with turning that into an achievement."

But that's the problem. An achievement shouldn't only be about what % of people that manages to unlock it, it's also about "heck if someone manages to do this then give him an achievement, he deserves it."

Achievements aren't supposed to be about everyone, yes most of them should be possible for the majority of players but some of them should reward those that goes the extra mile or has incredible skills. Why shouldn't they be rewarded? Like I said in my previous post, I rarely get all achievements in a game and if there are some I can't get, then so be it, it's not the end of the world, but don't punish those that wants to go the extra mile or has mad skills.

it seems like you're making this about yourself. maybe some people really want to get all achievements? the completionists are exactly why we can't have an achievement for say, clearing 64 heat. the people who want to hunt for achievements are not at fault here, but it's just what has been said. the developers would much rather have players leave happy then angry that they can't beat 50 heat all aspects or something like that. also how is the lack of an achievement "punishing" someone who's willing to go the extra mile?

It's not about myself, it's about why punish those that has skills because some will be mad because they can't get all achievements.

[spammy]

Originally posted by Radwar99:

Originally posted by spammy:

it seems like you're making this about yourself. maybe some people really want to get all achievements? the completionists are exactly why we can't have an achievement for say, clearing 64 heat. the people who want to hunt for achievements are not at fault here, but it's just what has been said. the developers would much rather have players leave happy then angry that they can't beat 50 heat all aspects or something like that. also how is the lack of an achievement "punishing" someone who's willing to go the extra mile?

It's not about myself, it's about why punish those that has skills because some will be mad because they can't get all achievements.

not being given a virtual medal for accomplishing a tall task isn't punishment, what are you even talking about

[Fourlamas]

Here, achieve this: beat max heat, beat the game under 10 minutes, beat the game without taking a single instance of damage.

Prove it and I will mail you your well deserved pixels.

[TommyEV]

I don't see the issue. 16 heat is a nice challenge that most people will be able to do with some planning and ptience. 32 is a whole different story.

inb4 but they are called achievements. But still, the existing ones are already a decent challenge.

[C4RNIVOR3]

Originally posted by Radwar99:

Achievements aren't supposed to be about everyone,

Not a single person has said this, this isn't even an argument to address

Originally posted by Radwar99:

yes most of them should be possible for the majority of players but some of them should reward those that goes the extra mile or has incredible skills. Why shouldn't they be rewarded? Like I said in my previous post, I rarely get all achievements in a game and if there are some I can't get, then so be it, it's not the end of the world, but don't punish those that wants to go the extra mile or has mad skills.

??? No one is being punished? So a player not getting an achievement for some arbitrarily difficult task in a game is a "punishment" now? You don't see how that inherently sounds absurd?

I don't agree to the idea that games should have difficult achievements just for the sake of having difficult achievements. By the same token, I also don't agree to achievements that are granted for any little menial task a player does. Different people have different ideas of what constitutes as "difficulty" and what should be considered an "achievement."

Difficult achievements shoehorned in just because a small fraction of players want balls off the wall hard achievements is not something I feel most games need, but the notion that anyone is punished because they chose to go out of their way for something and didn't get a pixel achievement on steam for it is ridiculous.


tl;dr Everyone has a different view of difficulty

[Ragnarök]

As a person who likes to get as many achievements as I can in games I love - I really like the decision devs made. I have games where I'd love to get all achievements but they are unreally difficult and I actually discussed this with a friend. Another point for Supergiant Games in my book.