Mirror of Night rework should be reworked again

[M — K]

Sorry but when i heard new talents i went holy sh** more things to mix-and match but then i go and see what is the horror of those other talents.

Maybe only 2 were somewhat handy meanwhile everything else puts you at a detriment with for example the ruthless dash being almost completely useless making any proper heat run without early hermes nearly impossible.

I am not here on sole intent to tell that i don't like that you added this because it's a cool concept to have more ways to play and mix builds, but this one is almost completely a disadvantage unless i'm missing something?

What do you guys think, do you also feel these second choice talents are really lame?


One that is extremely useful and in my opinion the best thing ever is the fated persuasion, allowing to reroll literally anything even well of charon and where you sell boons.

[M — K]

Plus there's no way to "confirm" your decisions so i keep wasting keys since i accidentally put points into something i don't want but i have mostly all unlocked so i don't think this matters, atleast for me but others it might

[Lord Nightcrest]

The change is new and some choices are definitely better than their counterparts but none of them are useless. They all have some gameplay niche that they are filling.

Give time for some balancing to happen.

[M — K]

Originally posted by Lord Nightcrest:

The change is new and some choices are definitely better than their counterparts but none of them are useless. They all have some gameplay niche that they are filling.

Give time for some balancing to happen.

I disagree personally but hopefully balancing will happen i definetely don't think it'll happen instantly.. just pointing out what i think over 100 hours

[Lord Nightcrest]

Originally posted by KrianMusic:

I disagree personally but hopefully balancing will happen i definetely don't think it'll happen instantly.. just pointing out what i think over 100 hours

In my opinion...

Fiery Presence: needs major buff
Cthonic Vitality: needs major buff
Stubborn Defiance: needs minor buff
Olympian Favor: needs hypermegaduperginormous buff

Reflex Options: perfectly balanced
Blood Options: perfectly balanced
Soul Options: perfectly balanced
Gold Options: perfectly balanced
Confidence/Thick Skin: perfectly balanced
Family/Privileged: perfectly balanced
God's Options: perfectly balanced (although choice design might not be optimal)
Fated Options: perfectly balanced

[Uli Minati]

I almost always use the same setup since I don't plan the build in advance and mostly go safety over reward, but if you are going for a specific build you can switch your talents:
Fiery Presence is better if you go for cast builds (no backstab)
Dark Regen replaces Vitality for me since I'm farming Darkness
Stubborn is good for newcomers, you can also exploit it for a heal if you are on very low hp
Ruthless I use all the time now (risk reward)
Abyssal is for pure cast builds
Stygian is if you hate picking up stuff or keep tossing your casts into the lava like I do
Golden usually gives you more total gold by the time you get to the end
Confidence is more risk reward (I suck too much to take it)can't upkeep two status
Family gives you weaker boosts on average, but more reliably. Also better for Artemis or Blade Rift builds with barely any status
Olympian is more risk (less rare boons) reward (more duo/legendary)

Gods Chosen has too low chances to be worth it. 20% would be better I think, to get more but rare boons compared to fewer but epic ones
Fated Persuasion can help you find Duo/Legendary, but for some reason costs more Darkness to upgrade

[Scilin]

fiery Presence - Inferior in virtually every situation to shadowy presence

Cthonic vitality-superior as long as your making it to styx reliably as there is no shadow there so the room per small room heals add up a lot, however a case can be made for dark regeneration if you take that one thing that you could have 5 charges of that drops those things and get full heals in styx provided you take its charges and save them

Death defiance- superior if you can consistently make it to the end boss without dying, stubborn is superior if yo find yourself dying alot, stubborn is more akin to training wheels I guess

Greater reflex and ruthless reflex are both amazing extra dash is useful however the extra dodge and damage ive found out performs the extra dash almost always once you get used to using it

Boiling and abyssal blood- I prefer boiling, I think abyssal as a defense option can go a long way with certain builds.

Infernal vs stygian I like extra casts alot, however theres a strong ammount of convenience and having your asts regenerate quickly with stygian so less burst more consistent usage if the enemy isnt dying, both are pretty useful depending on what your going for.

Deep pockets vs golden touch, Id say deep is the better option, if your concern is buying an extra blood or diamond in styx though running golden makes that easier.

Thick skin is better almost always, however guan yu and other specialized runs can benefit very greatly from high confidence so it comes to more build specific, unless your just got tier and dont get hit excellent speed runner tool I guess.

Priveleged status vs family favorite, you can get priveledged running in minimum 2 boons and it takes 7 boons from different gods to attain a 2% fain over priveleged, family favorite is 100% of the time active though, I think maybe a slight buff is needed for family but its not bad.

all 6 of the last 3 tiers are perfectly viable and select to taste.

[Morton Koopa Jr.]

OP, maybe if you point out a few specifics, we can discuss further. There was a large Reddit thread that gave a lot of detail for why he hated pretty much every new nyx ability, and from what I could tell, every argument was either flaws, or was totally partial to how he elects to play the game.

For instance, everyone seemed to hate on stygian cast initially (because omg my cast build). That's finally changed somewhat when ppl actually used the thing. (You can literally hit and run in challenge rooms without worrying about picking your charges)

And guess what, not everyone does a cast build either.

[M — K]

Originally posted by Morton Koopa Jr.:

OP, maybe if you point out a few specifics, we can discuss further. There was a large Reddit thread that gave a lot of detail for why he hated pretty much every new nyx ability, and from what I could tell, every argument was either flaws, or was totally partial to how he elects to play the game.

For instance, everyone seemed to hate on stygian cast initially (because omg my cast build). That's finally changed somewhat when ppl actually used the thing. (You can literally hit and run in challenge rooms without worrying about picking your charges)

And guess what, not everyone does a cast build either.

The cast thing is really really contextual, since having 1 cast really handicaps your damage immensely, this is permanent untill either.. you get chaos boons (good luck) or the +3 ammo legendary which... good luck aswell but in this case combined with +15% legendary chance viable but also extremely reliant on this.

Maybe you don't do a cast build indeed but a singular cast shot that regens without worry is extremely pointless personally when you could have +3 that just well technically also regens just really slowly untill it plops out.

Even though there's all this, why not just use the +2 ammo have a total of 3 casts, get maybe a chaos boon if lucky and +3 ammo for a grand total of 7 whopping shots which completely is more worth it than stygian... unless you manange to get quick reload to like 2.65? seconds along with maybe 4 shots of ammo,

I don't know, in the grand scheme of things it feels like it could have its uses and that's all i get from most of these abilities.. it could be useful but always i find myself returning to every original talent since it benefits me more where i don't have to care about it or it is flat out simpler and more beneficial to have the original talent.

Golden touch being personally completely useless (honestly) for me since even 500 gold +15% is 575 gold which sounds neat but where on earth would you have that much gold.. saving for styx? you can literally get most if not almost all main gold you need alone from enemies and pots in Styx, personally the 100 gold starting will be in every case more money than you'll get from golden touch..

I yet again do not intend to trash something but i feel i just get the wrong impression from these talents. It seems to me that the main talents are simple improvements in every way and the secondary talent tree a bunch of gimmicks for specific builds (which now that i think is actually neat) but there's still some that would be nice if more useful.. golden touch as a real prime example. Ruthless dash is also really gimmicky and doesn't seem worth risking constantly for the dmg boost plus if you play without it in mind chances are you're never going to activate either as often as you could...

So far in my rambling i think i've come to the conclusion it's just a gimmick tab (which actually now is good) with some talents that could use balancing or well.. buffs.

EXTRA EDIT NOTE: I am thinking of actual high heat runs above 10 heat or 15, the practicality of alot of these start to lose value quickly since the beginning tartarus mananges to become practical hell and really hell above 25

[Morton Koopa Jr.]

Originally posted by KrianMusic:

The cast thing is really really contextual, since having 1 cast really handicaps your damage immensely, this is permanent untill either.. you get chaos boons (good luck) or the +3 ammo legendary which... good luck aswell but in this case combined with +15% legendary chance viable but also extremely reliant on this.

One cast only handicaps your damage immensely if you've built your cast damage early on and often. There are builds I do sometimes where I often have to remind myself to cast. And it's mainly just for the multiplier. As I can easily kill the weaker enemies without it. And I don't have to worry about picking it up.

Maybe you don't do a cast build indeed but a singular cast shot that regens without worry is extremely pointless personally when you could have +3 that just well technically also regens just really slowly untill it plops out.

I disagree. I find it not slow at all. What we have imhere is a preference not a clear comparison quality.

Even though there's all this, why not just use the +2 ammo have a total of 3 casts, get maybe a chaos boon if lucky and +3 ammo for a grand total of 7 whopping shots which completely is more worth it than stygian... unless you manange to get quick reload to like 2.65? seconds along with maybe 4 shots of ammo,

You just dismissed stygian based on the situations when you get a chaos cast boon and a legendary boon for Artemis. Again specific. Contextual. As specific and contextual as the situations where I'm firing constant regenerating darts every 2.75 sec.

I don't know, in the grand scheme of things it feels like it could have its uses and that's all i get from most of these abilities.. it could be useful but always i find myself returning to every original talent since it benefits me more where i don't have to care about it or it is flat out simpler and more beneficial to have the original talent.

Half of mine are green now. So again. To each their own. All because we play differently doesn't mean the abilities are (all) unbalanced.

Golden touch being personally completely useless (honestly) for me since even 500 gold +15% is 575 gold which sounds neat but where on earth would you have that much gold.. saving for styx? you can literally get most if not almost all main gold you need alone from enemies and pots in Styx, personally the 100 gold starting will be in every case more money than you'll get from golden touch..

Every single run I've done with golden touch nets me over. I generally get out of tartarus with around 460 gold on average. That's what, +64?

Before they even released gold touch, for the last few heats I've done, I've typically saved as much of my good as possible until Styx. I generally don't buy anything from shops. And I used to buy the boon rarity but then I stopped that too finding it unnecessary.

So yes +100 is nothing to what I can obtain now. I'm expecting a Nerf to this actually. The guy on Reddit had your same complaint and made a joke about Styx hoarding. But that's just it, this fit perfectly with my playstyle. I can now actually benefit. (Because yes, sometimes I buy the Titan blood because I feel strong enough to best Hades buying nothing else. Other times, I can buy out anything in Styx including additional pool bonuses and stuff).

I yet again do not intend to trash something but i feel i just get the wrong impression from these talents. It seems to me that the main talents are simple improvements in every way and the secondary talent tree a bunch of gimmicks for specific builds (which now that i think is actually neat) but there's still some that would be nice if more useful.. golden touch as a real prime example. Ruthless dash is also really gimmicky and doesn't seem worth risking constantly for the dmg boost plus if you play without it in mind chances are you're never going to activate either as often as you could...

I'm not alleging that you're trashing these abilities. I think you're coming down with premature conclusions either based on your biased and/or the fact that you haven't spent much time with them. For instance, ruthless dash isn't that risky and it frankly procs very liberally already. When you plan for it, it just gets better.

I concede that spam dashing is much safer though. I mainly use ruthless now because I want to train myself not to spam dash, while getting a boost in the process. (Cause as it is, you can spam dash escape so many things in this game).

EXTRA EDIT NOTE: I am thinking of actual high heat runs above 10 heat or 15, the practicality of alot of these start to lose value quickly since the beginning tartarus mananges to become practical hell and really hell above 25

I'm currently on heat 15 for everything but fist.

If it gets more impractical later, I wouldn't know, but based on your more detailed descriptions, it doesn't sound like the case either because you're speaking very generally about these abilities.

[M — K]

Originally posted by Morton Koopa Jr.:

Originally posted by KrianMusic:

The cast thing is really really contextual, since having 1 cast really handicaps your damage immensely, this is permanent untill either.. you get chaos boons (good luck) or the +3 ammo legendary which... good luck aswell but in this case combined with +15% legendary chance viable but also extremely reliant on this.

One cast only handicaps your damage immensely if you've built your cast damage early on and often. There are builds I do sometimes where I often have to remind myself to cast. And it's mainly just for the multiplier. As I can easily kill the weaker enemies without it. And I don't have to worry about picking it up.

Maybe you don't do a cast build indeed but a singular cast shot that regens without worry is extremely pointless personally when you could have +3 that just well technically also regens just really slowly untill it plops out.

I disagree. I find it not slow at all. What we have imhere is a preference not a clear comparison quality.

Even though there's all this, why not just use the +2 ammo have a total of 3 casts, get maybe a chaos boon if lucky and +3 ammo for a grand total of 7 whopping shots which completely is more worth it than stygian... unless you manange to get quick reload to like 2.65? seconds along with maybe 4 shots of ammo,

You just dismissed stygian based on the situations when you get a chaos cast boon and a legendary boon for Artemis. Again specific. Contextual. As specific and contextual as the situations where I'm firing constant regenerating darts every 2.75 sec.

I don't know, in the grand scheme of things it feels like it could have its uses and that's all i get from most of these abilities.. it could be useful but always i find myself returning to every original talent since it benefits me more where i don't have to care about it or it is flat out simpler and more beneficial to have the original talent.

Half of mine are green now. So again. To each their own. All because we play differently doesn't mean the abilities are (all) unbalanced.

Golden touch being personally completely useless (honestly) for me since even 500 gold +15% is 575 gold which sounds neat but where on earth would you have that much gold.. saving for styx? you can literally get most if not almost all main gold you need alone from enemies and pots in Styx, personally the 100 gold starting will be in every case more money than you'll get from golden touch..

Every single run I've done with golden touch nets me over. I generally get out of tartarus with around 460 gold on average. That's what, +64?

Before they even released gold touch, for the last few heats I've done, I've typically saved as much of my good as possible until Styx. I generally don't buy anything from shops. And I used to buy the boon rarity but then I stopped that too finding it unnecessary.

So yes +100 is nothing to what I can obtain now. I'm expecting a Nerf to this actually. The guy on Reddit had your same complaint and made a joke about Styx hoarding. But that's just it, this fit perfectly with my playstyle. I can now actually benefit. (Because yes, sometimes I buy the Titan blood because I feel strong enough to best Hades buying nothing else. Other times, I can buy out anything in Styx including additional pool bonuses and stuff).

I yet again do not intend to trash something but i feel i just get the wrong impression from these talents. It seems to me that the main talents are simple improvements in every way and the secondary talent tree a bunch of gimmicks for specific builds (which now that i think is actually neat) but there's still some that would be nice if more useful.. golden touch as a real prime example. Ruthless dash is also really gimmicky and doesn't seem worth risking constantly for the dmg boost plus if you play without it in mind chances are you're never going to activate either as often as you could...

I'm not alleging that you're trashing these abilities. I think you're coming down with premature conclusions either based on your biased and/or the fact that you haven't spent much time with them. For instance, ruthless dash isn't that risky and it frankly procs very liberally already. When you plan for it, it just gets better.

I concede that spam dashing is much safer though. I mainly use ruthless now because I want to train myself not to spam dash, while getting a boost in the process. (Cause as it is, you can spam dash escape so many things in this game).

EXTRA EDIT NOTE: I am thinking of actual high heat runs above 10 heat or 15, the practicality of alot of these start to lose value quickly since the beginning tartarus mananges to become practical hell and really hell above 25

I'm currently on heat 15 for everything but fist.

If it gets more impractical later, I wouldn't know, but based on your more detailed descriptions, it doesn't sound like the case either because you're speaking very generally about these abilities.

Completely disagree with most, the fact that golden touch nets you more money if you do save it is fair but there's really no reason to save up the money whatsoever execpt a small amount for styx.. unless you're planning on hoarding for the ENTIRE styx store with hermes + currency there's no reason

[Okat]

Scilin is pretty much spot on I think except for the very last line.

Originally posted by Scilin:

all 6 of the last 3 tiers are perfectly viable and select to taste.

The Fated choice is good but the boon alternatives are awful. 15 and 10 percent boosts are not at all worth trading the much more common occurrences of blues and purples.

Krian, hoarding gold for Styx is perfectly viable under 18 heat, and above too if you are good. It's especially valuable if you are grinding for resources to unlock and upgrade weapons or contracts. Golden Touch is pretty useful if you are gunning for that extra item from the store.

As for the regenerating cast, it is very useful for spamming spells safely; you can buy the additional blood crystal from the shop to boost your power. It also nets you higher average DPS on most weapons against bosses compared to having 3 blood crystals, although you have lower burst damage.