Proposed Scorch stack damage ramp

[Artemis ❤]

A common complaint about Hestia is the lack of benefit for stacking Scorch. I propose Scorch should tick faster the larger you stack it.

The formula: Scorch tick per second = 80 + (80 * (Scorch stack / enemy max hp) )

Imagine an enemy with 500 max hp. At zero Scorch, the bonus tick rate is zero and Scorch behaves as it currently does (I know at zero Scorch there is no Scorch but bear with me, this is the bottom end for context). Apply 250 Scorch, and you get a +50% burn for 120 per second. Apply 500 Scorch, and the burn damages at 160 per second, double speed. At this point with current Scorch, at 500 stacked on a 500 hp enemy any further application of Scorch is a waste of time, however with the stack based damage ramp you're still rewarded for continuing to apply further Scorch! At 1000 Scorch, this enemy would now take a triple damage burn per second at 240! There is never a point where stacking Scorch becomes useless because the tick damage can always go higher

This bonus would lead to Scorch fluctuating in damage with big dps spikes quickly fading off, since the bonus is determined by stacks of Scorch but ticking harder leads to stacks falling off more quickly, maintaining a high burn rate would take constant work as the bonus will naturally burn itself out

Pyro Technique would stack additively with this new bonus (possibly with reworked numbers), I don't think it need to be removed because there is still meaningful value to increasing base burn damage per tick which is consistent and not dependent on continuously stacking more Scorch

[Chainsaw Ballerina]

Innately or through a boon, I also strongly feel that scorch needs to be more rewarding when stacked highly. While I feel its damage is not bad right now (it's just ok) the rewarding factor is there only if freezer burn is involved.

[Artemis ❤]

Originally posted by Chainsaw Ballerina:

Innately or through a boon, I also strongly feel that scorch needs to be more rewarding when stacked highly. While I feel its damage is not bad right now (it's just ok) the rewarding factor is there only if freezer burn is involved.

If this were to be a boon instead of innate, it'd probably be a Pyro Technique rework, but I'm advocating for innate personally. Pyro already feels pretty mandatory to make her a competitive take option, I think stacking like this would help make Scorch more takable out of the box on its own. If this was a tier two boon, that's just Pyro again haha

[Fire walk with me]

I don't think your formula maths the way you think it does. I plugged in a hypothetical max scorch vs Typhon and it was less than 1.

[Artemis ❤]

Originally posted by Fire walk with me:

I don't think your formula maths the way you think it does. I plugged in a hypothetical max scorch vs Typhon and it was less than 1.

That shouldn't be possible? I'm adding 80 to the product of some multiplication and division math with no negative numbers, it shouldn't be possible to arrive at a number lower than 80

Regardless though, the intention is simply that at low Scorch there is basically no bonus, and at Scorch = enemy max hp the bonus is +100%. If I messed up my math at all, this is the goal I wanted to achieve haha

[Fire walk with me]

Oh, my apologies. I just meant the final value was simply like 80.04688 etc. That being said I know we aren't here to discuss the nitty gritty of math itself.

As someone who likes to defend scorch I am curious what kind of max damage you would like to see from a run? What number range seperates a good skill from bad or mediocre runs?

At its core scorch is a dot. The main dps increases for this mechanic are apply more dot or tick the damage faster. We already have pyro technique which is very good and should be a no brainer if one is focusing scorch damage for a run, however, I don't believe not having it truly cripples scorch dps either.

The one other idea is instant consumption which the Demeter duo has a version of. It is OK, but not spectacular (imo) and of course forces Demeter into the build which (also imo) is never really a bad thing. I wouldn't mind seeing a better version of instant consumption on Hestia alone. Her legendary is literally burning garbage (lol) I don't think anyone disagrees that it needs replacing. Maybe consuming all scorch by doing x could be that skill.

Sprint is amazing in niche application, but the 5 scorch at epic is kinda insulting. Increase it or just remove such a low addition.

As a dot this mechanic also just naturally works best on fast weapons. Scorch is gonna suck pretty hard on axe though axe can apply to multiple mobs easily which kind of balances it. Applying lots of scorch rapidly to as many mobs as possible is obviously the most desired outcome with the cherry on top being faster ticks.

I would love to see a boon titled conflagration: Essentially static shock, but for scorch. Jumps from enemy to enemy applying x scorch per bounce for y bounces.

I think maybe the bottom end of scorch should be boosted? Then again like I mentioned I am a fan and I get good numbers or at least from my analysis I do. I would love if you could share some numbers you have gotten in a run to compare and contrast.

[Artemis ❤]

Originally posted by Fire walk with me:

As someone who likes to defend scorch I am curious what kind of max damage you would like to see from a run? What number range seperates a good skill from bad or mediocre runs?

it isn't about "good" vs "bad" per say, it's more about the fun factor of getting rewarded for making big numbers happen

so I want to be clear I am also a Scorch enjoyer, Freezer Burn Torches was my ticket to my first 32 fear clears and remains one of my all time favorite builds, and Hestia cast in particular is one of my favorite casts in the game. I don't mean to imply that Scorch is unviable at all, it certainly is, I don't think any god in the game is unviable. my gripe with Scorch that I hope to see addressed here is that it's basically the only offensive mechanic that will reliably and routinely stop rewarding you for interacting with it at a certain point because of the consistent tick rate. once you clear certain HP thresholds, suddenly your attacks may as well not even have a boon because the extra stacks contribute nothing

this problem is the most apparent during certain boss fights where bosses will cleanse themselves of curses between phases. I don't have any definitive numbers I can give you off the top of my head like you asked for I'm afraid, but I know that basically any Chronos fight where I'm running Scorch I'm going to get to watch him flush hundreds or thousands of damage of Scorch down the toilet every time he phases

also, Scorch honestly isn't even a high speed curse, it's more of a mid speed curse because as long as you can match the pace of 80 - 180 Scorch applied per second, any application rate beyond that is moot. consistently keeping an enemy at less than 100 Scorch and getting them all the way up to 1000 Scorch are identical scenarios DPS wise

what I really want is SOMETHING that rewards my big orange numbers for hitting Chronos 100 times with my Torches before he wipes it all away. this proposed change is I think a relatively small ask since it's fundamentally a numbers tweak on a single curse effect, where as adding more ways to cash out your stacks with an instant consumption or interact with your stacks like Freezer Burn would require new boons, reworking old boons, and almost overhauling Hestia as a god all together. that seems like a LOT of work for what is, in the grand scheme of things, I think we'd agree not THAT big of a problem. I've advocated for a larger Poseidon rework in the past and I stand by that, but I don't think Hestia needs THAT kind of help at all, current Scorch is way less boring than "what if every button played the same splash animation over and over" hahaha

for her legendary I rather like an idea that was suggested in one of the youtuber Haelian's runs, enemies will instantly die when the Scorch stacked on them exceeds their current HP, essentially turning the orange DoT damage into direct immediate damage (another instant consumption effect to compliment Freezer Burn). I'm not sure if this is sufficiently balanced, but it's a fun idea and makes sense for a legendary

once again, I do like her as is, I just want some kind of reward for doing overkill Scorch stacks, and I figured ramping damage was a more reasonable way to achieve that than coming up with 3 or 4 entirely new boons to achieve the same result

[Artemis ❤]

for some perspective on how this isn't meant to fix Hestia's damage, Typhon has 65,000 health. in order to achieve an epic Pyro Technique level boost of +100% tick rate, you would need to deal 65,000 stacks of Scorch to him. what I'm proposing isn't a huge DPS up and it isn't a THAT big of a buff to Hestia, it's entirely about the fun factor of knowing that your big number is having some kind of tangible effect even if it's not a gamewinning powerspike on its own or whatever. cashing out with Freezer Burn will still be a waaaaay better use of your Scorch stacks than trying to ramp the burn rate

[Fire walk with me]

Originally posted by Sweater:

for some perspective on how this isn't meant to fix Hestia's damage, Typhon has 65,000 health. in order to achieve an epic Pyro Technique level boost of +100% tick rate, you would need to deal 65,000 stacks of Scorch to him. what I'm proposing isn't a huge DPS up and it isn't a THAT big of a buff to Hestia, it's entirely about the fun factor of knowing that your big number is having some kind of tangible effect even if it's not a gamewinning powerspike on its own or whatever. cashing out with Freezer Burn will still be a waaaaay better use of your Scorch stacks than trying to ramp the burn rate

By my calculations Typhon has 55,874 health. One of my runs knuckle bones was in my top five damage sources and did 8,381 damage. If knuckle bones does 15% damage then this should be 55,873.333xxxx.

Not to be rude, but I am not a fan of the usage of "stack" for scorch or at the least I am unsure of your definition of using it. Since scorch is 80/second is a stack defined as any amount over 80? I just wanted clarity because obviously scorch can be applied higher or lower than this amount.

Ultimately it sounds like we at least agree on some points. Fun is such a highly subjective term after all. While I maintain I am pretty happy where Hestia is I wouldn't be mad at any changes that make her potentially even more enjoyable to play. Heck, I loved skulls before their change, but I can admit that they are now better than ever, so I definitely am a full believer in "even if something is good it can still have potential to be even better".

One other thought I have is when I am fighting anyone with a life bar and scorch is higher than their remaining maximum hp I swear that their life bar drains even faster past that point. I might be completely crazy, but I have wondered if there is a mechanic that explains this or just a false perception on my part.

Edit: I still really want to see chain fireball apply scorch via enemy hopping happen. It just sounds so good in theory. :D

[Fire walk with me]

As a side thought I am curious to see what kind of scorch numbers you do throw up in a run since you haven't had any numbers to share thus far. If you have the time and effort for the experiment I would have you do a scorch run at any fear and take a screen shot of the victory screen. I am curious if there is any potential correlation between "fun" and amount of damage done with scorch.

[Artemis ❤]

Chain fire sounds dope! If she got more boons I'd love to see that as one of them

65,000 is just what the wiki said, I'm guessing with knuckle bones its getting messed up because his phase 1 hp pool doesn't allow a clean 15%? Unsure tho

Sorry by "stack" I just mean any application of Scorch, if you apply 160 Scorch then the way I'm using it it'd be 160 stacks of Scorch. The language is a holdover from Hangover, which did stack instead of just building into a single massive pool, so it isn't a great word to use here admittedly but it's the one stuck in my brain

If they do indeed burn faster at full Scorch like you say and it isn't a placebo, then nevermind, I'm just an idiot asking for features that are currently already in the game lmao

I'm afraid numbers wise I don't think my final dps meter would really play into this here? What I've proposed adjusts the speed Scorch burns at but not the damage, a run with these changes would have largely the same numbers as a current run, the difference is how fast that damage was dealt in game, so I guess the number difference would be your timer? Haha. My problem isn't that Scorch doesn't do enough damage, only that I'd like it to matter when I can deal more than 80 - 180 per second, to reward outpacing the tick rate. I could do a Scorch run, but I'd be after the weekend since I'm helping someone move irl

[Fire walk with me]

Originally posted by Sweater:

Chain fire sounds dope! If she got more boons I'd love to see that as one of them

65,000 is just what the wiki said, I'm guessing with knuckle bones its getting messed up because his phase 1 hp pool doesn't allow a clean 15%? Unsure tho

Sorry by "stack" I just mean any application of Scorch, if you apply 160 Scorch then the way I'm using it it'd be 160 stacks of Scorch. The language is a holdover from Hangover, which did stack instead of just building into a single massive pool, so it isn't a great word to use here admittedly but it's the one stuck in my brain

If they do indeed burn faster at full Scorch like you say and it isn't a placebo, then nevermind, I'm just an idiot asking for features that are currently already in the game lmao

I'm afraid numbers wise I don't think my final dps meter would really play into this here? What I've proposed adjusts the speed Scorch burns at but not the damage, a run with these changes would have largely the same numbers as a current run, the difference is how fast that damage was dealt in game, so I guess the number difference would be your timer? Haha. My problem isn't that Scorch doesn't do enough damage, only that I'd like it to matter when I can deal more than 80 - 180 per second, to reward outpacing the tick rate. I could do a Scorch run, but I'd be after the weekend since I'm helping someone move irl

I would be so excited for chain fireball, lol.

Curious how the wiki folks found that number. If the game files were analyzed or something that would make sense, but hard to say. If knuckle bones is doing that number though it should be adjusted for not doing what it says. 55~ k made sense, so I have been sticking with that due to evidence at hamd, but again hard to say for sure.

Yeah, stack just sounds odd to me in the context of a single point of damage. I would be more likely to agree a stack is the point at which damage ticks i.e. 80/second, but that might muddy language. Supergiant already has hella clarity issues with mechanics and boons as is :D

I need to do some more testing on scorch/hp to draw any further conclusions. I appreciate posts like this because I always take the time to wonder why someone thinks a certain way then I take the time to test it in game etc. Lol, I actually like to bring and present as much factual evidence concerning anything other than just a feeling about something when a conversation I may have an alternate point of view on. Forcing myself to test things has opened my eyes on a variety of mechanics and boons.

Honestly since I have been doing nothing but Hestia runs after reading this post while I still think scorch is good I kinda dislike the rest of her kit not gonna lie. Pyro technique and her cast launch are the only boons from her I typically actually want. Even crazier is I tend to do MORE damage with scorch on runs without pyro somehow. I believe my max dmg from scorch on a run has been 180,xxx k and I did not have pyro. Will analyze and test some more though because I like this topic.

[Kenny Rogers]

I see your point. Fire makes sense as "bigger it gets, faster it burns" so the idea of it ticking at the same rate regardless of how much has built up is counter intuitive. It's also unintuitive how scorch of different sizes stack and tick together, at least from the exact text the game provides.

On the other hand, for the most part scorch "just works" as it is, Hestia cast especially deals so much damage it's hard to complain about, and it breaks down vow hearts. There's also the boon that accelerates the burn by a fixed amount. Scorch is great for encounters but perhaps is weak(er) against bosses. Nevertheless it's still hard to say that the current way it deals damage is "bad" even against bosses.

Maybe a boon like "every hit against a scorched target increases the current dps by X%" would do it, but I suspect that's actually totally overpowered. It would make almost no difference against regular goons but if you get that X value wrong then bosses would start burning through their scorch damage faster than you could re-apply it, so at some point they'd be burning so fast they... just stop burning? It's all just kinda weird.

[Fire walk with me]

Originally posted by Kenny Rogers:

I see your point. Fire makes sense as "bigger it gets, faster it burns" so the idea of it ticking at the same rate regardless of how much has built up is counter intuitive. It's also unintuitive how scorch of different sizes stack and tick together, at least from the exact text the game provides.

On the other hand, for the most part scorch "just works" as it is, Hestia cast especially deals so much damage it's hard to complain about, and it breaks down vow hearts. There's also the boon that accelerates the burn by a fixed amount. Scorch is great for encounters but perhaps is weak(er) against bosses. Nevertheless it's still hard to say that the current way it deals damage is "bad" even against bosses.

Maybe a boon like "every hit against a scorched target increases the current dps by X%" would do it, but I suspect that's actually totally overpowered. It would make almost no difference against regular goons but if you get that X value wrong then bosses would start burning through their scorch damage faster than you could re-apply it, so at some point they'd be burning so fast they... just stop burning? It's all just kinda weird.

To my knowledge scorch from any source is simply additive, makes a pile, and "ticks" at a consistent rate of 80/s. Really only pyro technique can improve this dps on single target as far as I know. The most efficient utilization is quickly applying multiple full ticks (80+) to as many mobs as possible which is why scorch cast is so good. It has a naturally high application and tagging multiple enemies can very quickly increase the dps of scorch as a whole for the run.

I am really of the mind scorch right now and at its core is a solid mechanic and curse. I think the rest of Hestia's boon kit is very meh and I would not hate seeing some shifted or added to give more nuance to how scorch operates. Chain fireball is still my favorite idea so far. As mentioned applying scorch to as many mobs as possible gives a very good benefit.

Thank you for reminding me as well that it absolutely shreds those heart invuln shields which essentially provides a free few levels of fear vows.

[Kenny Rogers]

Originally posted by Fire walk with me:

Originally posted by Kenny Rogers:

I see your point. Fire makes sense as "bigger it gets, faster it burns" so the idea of it ticking at the same rate regardless of how much has built up is counter intuitive. It's also unintuitive how scorch of different sizes stack and tick together, at least from the exact text the game provides.

On the other hand, for the most part scorch "just works" as it is, Hestia cast especially deals so much damage it's hard to complain about, and it breaks down vow hearts. There's also the boon that accelerates the burn by a fixed amount. Scorch is great for encounters but perhaps is weak(er) against bosses. Nevertheless it's still hard to say that the current way it deals damage is "bad" even against bosses.

Maybe a boon like "every hit against a scorched target increases the current dps by X%" would do it, but I suspect that's actually totally overpowered. It would make almost no difference against regular goons but if you get that X value wrong then bosses would start burning through their scorch damage faster than you could re-apply it, so at some point they'd be burning so fast they... just stop burning? It's all just kinda weird.

To my knowledge scorch from any source is simply additive, makes a pile, and "ticks" at a consistent rate of 80/s. Really only pyro technique can improve this dps on single target as far as I know. The most efficient utilization is quickly applying multiple full ticks (80+) to as many mobs as possible which is why scorch cast is so good. It has a naturally high application and tagging multiple enemies can very quickly increase the dps of scorch as a whole for the run.

I am really of the mind scorch right now and at its core is a solid mechanic and curse. I think the rest of Hestia's boon kit is very meh and I would not hate seeing some shifted or added to give more nuance to how scorch operates. Chain fireball is still my favorite idea so far. As mentioned applying scorch to as many mobs as possible gives a very good benefit.

Thank you for reminding me as well that it absolutely shreds those heart invuln shields which essentially provides a free few levels of fear vows.

Indeed, I think hestia cast is A+/S tier as far as casts go, hestia special is decent with Daybreaker torches for similar reasons but not as good as other choices. I'd say Hestia is overall pretty meh besides her Cast and MP regen.

Another way to make stacking flames would be to have it deal half the remaining fire tick as damage until there's 40 or less damage remaining, in which case it just deals the full remainder. Depending on your attack speed this would soft-cap the amount of damage you can stack and it would become a fixed DPS source (lets say you can stack 250 damage in 1 second, 500 stacked ticks for 250, so your scorch DPS caps at 250 instead of 80). This would require a complete overhaul of the scorch numbers though, daggers and torches would probably become insanely strong at their current levels.