Bosses have little reason to fight... it ruins Melonie's Character

[Demon Swords]

The story acts like (or at least some people in the forums argue in defense of Melonie) that Melonie has been trained since birth only to kill Cronos and thus should be emotionally stunted/ very serous. Though the story has said it, I can see through Melonie’s actions and Dialogue that she does not have the personality or drive to match this idea. If she actually was 100% serous about taking down Cronos, she should forcefully shut-up all the ridiculous bosses that are stopping her for little to no reason.

- Hecate: After you fight her a few times to prove you're "ready", why does she keep fighting you? If Melonie is really supposed to be single minded about fighting, she should get angry at her master for constantly wasting her time and energy, instead of only slightly questioning it like Melonie actually does. (this gets more ridiculous the more times you kill Cronos. How is Melonie not ready to kill Cronos after you've already killed Cronos several times?)

- Scylla: Why is Melonie fighting Scylla and only slightly questioning it? All Scylla wants is someone to listen to her music and whatever desires cause her to drown people. Scylla doesn't care about Cronos and Melonie can't even die (so she can't really be drowned), so why doesn't Melonie try reasoning with Scylla more or raging at how much of a waste of time dealing with Scylla is. Melonie never tries to convince Scylla that she'll listen to the music when she is done with Cronos nor does she try to use Odysseus's connection to Scylla in any way. Lots of characters say Odysseus is a cleaver planner for the war but since we know so little about whats happening, it does not really feel like he does much. So why don't we just take odysseus and sacrifice him to Scylla. Odysseus is a shade, so he can't really die anyways, and if it would actually have Scylla let us pass it might be a win-win. (Sure it would be a very cruel thing for Melonie to do, but it sounds like something a revenge hungry person would actually try at least once.)

Cyclopes: The Cyclopes just wants to eat and sleep and doesn't seem to really know about Cronos until after Melonie brings it up several times. Since Melonie can't die (so how could she be eaten?) and the Cyclopes seem ignorant about Cronos why doesn't Melonie try reasoning with the Cyclopes more? Or just get angry at him for wasting her time when fighting her doesn't even fit his goals.

Eris: Presuming that Eris actually wants Chaos for the sake of Chaos and that is not just an excuse to hide a bigger plan, there isn't really any way to reason with her. Even with that said, Melonie is waayyy to accepting of Eris. Melonie only gets a bit flustered and does not get truly angry with Eris, and Melonie is even willing to make a peace offering and try to understand Eris point of view. This once again does not sound like the behavior of someone who is truly single mindly hellbent on revenge.

Because these bosses don’t have a real reason to fight, the game can only have Melonie slightly question it because otherwise it will break the story. And because Melonie can’t truly question or try to reach a compromise with the bosses, Melonie seems a lot less serious then she is supposedly meant to be.


What actually seems to be the case is that characters are telling Melonie that she is supposed to be angry, but because she doesn't even know the family she had taken from her and has a foster family like relationship with several others, she can't truly feel that way. Now if the devs wanted the story to go into that direction for Melonie, it could be interesting and fun, but right now its just does not work. Melonie’s self-doubt is not referenced enough to be a core aspect of her. Also many of the characters she should already have a pre-extisting relationship with treat her coldly both overtly and in sub-text (Dora and Hecate are vary clear examples of this.), so it's hard to believe she would see these people like a foster family. Its really awkward when Melonie seems to be on better terms with Aracne, Circe, and the bow goddess (that she likely rarely meets) then Dora (her BF) and Hecate (her Master) that she sees literally every day.

If they wanted a fully serious tone, the protagonist should have been Nemesis or Hercules or Melonie should have had a nearly identical personality to either of them.

Zagreus’s Bosses at least each had a logical reason to fight. The three sisters are working under Hades Orders + have a personal grudge against Zagreus. Hydra is a mindless beast. Thesseus and Minotaur want the Glory of Battle. Hades himself is trying to stop a rebellious teen, keep the Underworld’s rep of being inescapable, and maybe trying to stop Zagreus from meeting his mom (though it doesn’t seem like Hades knows Zagreus is meeting his mom at first, so probably not the last one.).

[werwolfgaming]

U got 1 thing wrong shes a god not immortal scylla and cyclops are beings formed by gods, as such they have the power to kill a god, getting eaten would kill her why do u think she uses a spell to escape death, its also stated each time u die in a run it takes her multiple days/nights to regain enough energy to try again,

Hecate tests her each attempt could there be a better plot maybe switch hecate with other people like odysseus or nemesis like they did the furies, making the test diffrent

Scylla as said can drown her to death if she listens to the music shes not immortal, also she was trained to kill chronus but as seen is flashbacks they played hide and seek with her as a child too so she wasent trained to only kill she had fun as a kid,

She hates chronus and wants him dead but she also questions herself if shes good enough to do it,

[三Akiyama]

Hecate and Cerberus don't make any sense (Hecate only makes sense for a few runs, and Cerberus only for one), but everyone else is ok.

Still, that's very weak writting. It's very obvious that the agenda for this game wasn't focused on making a good story.

[Cunin]

Hecate for sure does not make any sense whatsoever after the initial runs and wins.

Can only hope they change that one up or make it work like the fury sisters later on and with a significantly different arena to fight in.

[rhabdophobia]

Hecate- The first battle is to test if Melinoe is ready, future encounters are intended to keep Melinoe sharp and focused, think of it like stretching before exercise.

Scylla- Scylla is lying about the innocent intent of her performance, deceiving people into their deaths is her whole thing. It's not an "uncontrollable urge" that makes her want to drown people, she just likes doing it. Odds are regardless of how Melinoe reacted Scylla would have tried to kill her.

Polyphemus (Cyclops)- Melinoe does try to reason with him? Multiple times in fact. Every attempt on her part pre-battle is met by resistance from Polyphemus. He wants to eat her, he isn't going to budge on that. He also mentions that the first time Melinoe beat him was the best sleep he's had in ages, so he could be instigating for that reason also.

Eris- I think it's implied that Melinoe and Eris have some history, explaining why Melinoe still at least tries to reason with her, but to say that Melinoe isn't reasonably angry with Eris is ridiculous lol. She tells Eris multiple times that she wants her gone permanently, repeatedly and frequently calls her a traitor to her face, and at one point tries to get her kicked out by Hecate (only to find out that it's literally impossible). Most "friendly" interactions I think are just Melinoe realizing she's stuck with Eris no matter what and trying to make the best of a bad situation.

Also, regarding Melinoe's immortality, while it's true she cannot "truly" die, when/if she does it would take her a substantial amount of time to reform, which is why she goes out of her way to avoid that result by using the last of her energy to return to the crossroads.

[Demon Swords]

Originally posted by werwolfgaming:

U got 1 thing wrong shes a god not immortal scylla and cyclops are beings formed by gods, as such they have the power to kill a god, getting eaten would kill her why do u think she uses a spell to escape death, its also stated each time u die in a run it takes her multiple days/nights to regain enough energy to try again,

Hecate tests her each attempt could there be a better plot maybe switch hecate with other people like odysseus or nemesis like they did the furies, making the test diffrent

Scylla as said can drown her to death if she listens to the music shes not immortal, also she was trained to kill chronus but as seen is flashbacks they played hide and seek with her as a child too so she wasent trained to only kill she had fun as a kid,

She hates chronus and wants him dead but she also questions herself if shes good enough to do it,

Whether she actually dies (which i don't see why she can't since Cronos and Scylla are definitely killed then come back, though since she is sent to the cross-road and not the river like Zagreus was, maybe it has to be an escape spell) or use a spell to escape before death, it still does not change that even when cyclops and Scylla win they don't get to satisfy their hunger or drowning desire (and never will, so it breaks some of their motivation to fight.)

Also I would like to note that in the hide and seek flashback, the hiding and seeking is in the context of Hecate being a stand in for Cronos so its actually make belive of Melonie seeking out and hunting down Cronos (which you can still interpret as her being Psychologically trained to fight Cronos).

I've seen in the posts about whether Zag or Mel is better, some people defend Melonie's lack of personality / being overly serous with her being trained since birth to kill Cronos. Though my use of "solely" might have been a bit of an exaggeration, my main point is that her actions and attitude (in this specific case towards these bosses) do not match the idea of someone seriously trying to kill Cronos.

Also she does Question her resolve at least once and Nemesis like 1-3 times. (with at least one time each referencing she has had no context with her family, so its a hallow revenge.)

[Demon Swords]

Originally posted by Scylla & The Sirens:

Hecate- The first battle is to test if Melinoe is ready, future encounters are intended to keep Melinoe sharp and focused, think of it like stretching before exercise.

Scylla- Scylla is lying about the innocent intent of her performance, deceiving people into their deaths is her whole thing. It's not an "uncontrollable urge" that makes her want to drown people, she just likes doing it. Odds are regardless of how Melinoe reacted Scylla would have tried to kill her.

Polyphemus (Cyclops)- Melinoe does try to reason with him? Multiple times in fact. Every attempt on her part pre-battle is met by resistance from Polyphemus. He wants to eat her, he isn't going to budge on that. He also mentions that the first time Melinoe beat him was the best sleep he's had in ages, so he could be instigating for that reason also.

Eris- I think it's implied that Melinoe and Eris have some history, explaining why Melinoe still at least tries to reason with her, but to say that Melinoe isn't reasonably angry with Eris is ridiculous lol. She tells Eris multiple times that she wants her gone permanently, repeatedly and frequently calls her a traitor to her face, and at one point tries to get her kicked out by Hecate (only to find out that it's literally impossible). Most "friendly" interactions I think are just Melinoe realizing she's stuck with Eris no matter what and trying to make the best of a bad situation.

Also, regarding Melinoe's immortality, while it's true she cannot "truly" die, when/if she does it would take her a substantial amount of time to reform, which is why she goes out of her way to avoid that result by using the last of her energy to return to the crossroads.

Hecate: I don't agree that makes much sense, but most of the arguments I can think of are too opinionated, so I won't try to change your opinion.

Scylla: Whether its an act or some uncontrollable urge, Melonie still will always use the escape spell / be unkillable and Melonie never brings that up as an argument for why Scylla shouldn't fight her. Whether Scylla is acting innocent or is just very passionate about music and happens to like killing the audience, in either case Melonie clearly does not like the music and is not buying the innocent act (so once again Melonie is not fulfilling the desires of Scylla.)

Cyclops: Though she definitely have the most attempts trying to convince Cyclops they seem very weak when she never uses the strongest arguments she has. Melonie has an escape spell / is unkillable so is uneatable (so why does she never mention it?) Also why doesn't Melonie ever offer to just knock out the cyclops without the actual fight. Like why can't the cyclops just stand still and let Melonie knock him out? (also if Melonie just mentioned her inability to be eaten, maybe she could of convinced the cyclopse to let her pass before he become a glutton for punishment.) I could be misremembering, but I think the one time the Cyclops mentions Heracles, he says he avoids Heracles because he thinks Melonie is easier to beat (and not that Heracles would actually kill the cyclops instead of knocking him out.) So given the 2 motivations before, why does't the cyclops just fight Heracles. Heracles shouldn't be immortal and thus eatable (though a quick google search says the gods eventually gift him Immortality, but he might not have it in this version, and if he does, Melonie most definitely does.) Once Cyclops liked being knocked out, why doesn't he start seeking out Hercales (who he believes is stronger then Melonie) and have Hercales knock him out. If being knocked out = good sleep, then it would be worth testing if being knocked out by someone stronger (and thus likely kocked out even harder) would equal even better sleep.

Eris: To me it felt like Melonie was only annoyed, not angry or Furios towards Eris. But that impression is probably from weak VA, bad dialog, and the gameplay element of being able to gift Eris (Normally people don't go out of their way to gift things to others that they hate or reluctantly put up with.) If your Opinion is that the story did a good enough job then so be it. (Neither of us are going to go to of their way to replay the game just to see if Eris and Melonie's interactions lean more towards eone impression or the other, so its pretty pointless in continuing this argument.)

[Morton Koopa Jr.]

I'm not really following the mental gymnastics here.

Hecate finds it necessary to continue to train/challenge her.

Scylla is...like any other monster in her path.

Cerberus is also...in the way as she explains to Hades and nemesis.

Cyclops is in her way, she tells him she's trying to get to the docks.

Nemesis is directly blocking her way, this is what she complains about.

Are you wondering why she doesn't just run past? You could say that about any encounter she has.

[AltPlusF4]

Or just realize that it's a game and the story is largely inconsequential, so feel free to skip those dialogue interactions between runs like I do and enjoy yourself.

[Demon Swords]

Originally posted by Morton Koopa Jr.:

I'm not really following the mental gymnastics here.

Hecate finds it necessary to continue to train/challenge her.

Scylla is...like any other monster in her path.

Cerberus is also...in the way as she explains to Hades and nemesis.

Cyclops is in her way, she tells him she's trying to get to the docks.

Nemesis is directly blocking her way, this is what she complains about.

Are you wondering why she doesn't just run past? You could say that about any encounter she has.

Hecate: Why does Melonie need training if she has already killed Cronos several times. (and needlessly challenging her on her very important quest to kill Cronos seems like a waste of time and energy for both of them.) It just seems like a throw away line they added to allow the game play not be affected by the story.

Scylla: Scylla can talk even if she is dimwitted or playing dumb / innocent, so you can at least attempt to reason with her, or actually get angry that she is needlessly getting in your way. (Likening her to any of the monsters able to talk or even Cerberus or the Hydra from the first game doesn't work.)

Cerberus: I intentionally didn't mention him because he can't be reasoned with so he is not a part of the gameplay that also messes up the story. Though his inclusion might weaken the argument, having 4 of the 6 boss fights with little motivation to fight on either side is already concerning enough.

I am wondering why she is doing the fights in the first place and only slightly questioning instead of being Furios that people are blocking her for very bad reasons or pointing out those bad reasons to try to convince them to let her pass.

[Demon Swords]

Originally posted by AltPlusF4:

Or just realize that it's a game and the story is largely inconsequential, so feel free to skip those dialogue interactions between runs like I do and enjoy yourself.

I play a lot of Rogue lites / likes and the majority of them have little to no story. I enjoyed Hades 1 story and wish Hades 2 story was better, so I can enjoy it too. If I very specifically just wanted game-play, I would just play more of other rogue lites / likes (especially Brotato which i have over 250 hours in.) And if the game was meant to be enjoyed for just the game-play, they wouldn't have spent so much time and money on the story parts.

Philosophically it might be healthier and more enjoyable to just be happy with what we have that is good (the game play) and just ignore the bad / mediocre (the story), but I refuse.

[P90 GOD]

This game sadly has more plotholes than ive ever seen in my life.
Chronos tricked Chaos (the creator of it all) to give information to him? Like... Seriously?
Chaos is that dumb? He literally made everything and cant realise when hes being lied to?
Hades 1 all the way. This game so far is a joke.

Also. In hades 1 I NEVER skipped a single text of any character, because it was crazy insane of how good it was and how it hooks you to the history, but his one? Holy moly i lost count of how many skips i did to pointless gibberish from people talking.

[ChrisPharmD]

Well... it's like... a videogame?

[UNBREAKABLE]

Originally posted by P90 GOD:

This game sadly has more plotholes than ive ever seen in my life.
Chronos tricked Chaos (the creator of it all) to give information to him? Like... Seriously?
Chaos is that dumb? He literally made everything and cant realise when hes being lied to?
Hades 1 all the way. This game so far is a joke.

Chaos was already depicted as being indifferent and not understanding what goes on beyond their realm. They either don't care, don't have to, or both. Nothing in modern day remembles their original creations and they are not bound to any consistency since they're, well, chaos.

Furthermore Chaos was also not familiar with personal relationships or the behavior of sentient beings until meeting Zag. The idea that a person could act friendly and have mal intent was not something that crossed their mind when they were talking to Chronos - since their previous basis was Zag and their daughter Nyx.

Curiousity is Chaos' main concern since they're more or less a mad scientist. They're above the fates and don't really care for the weavings, so Chronos took advantage of that and probably said something along the lines of "if the fates control everything then that means you can't tell me where they are, right?".

[Calamity Heart]

Originally posted by P90 GOD:

This game sadly has more plotholes than ive ever seen in my life.
Chronos tricked Chaos (the creator of it all) to give information to him? Like... Seriously?
Chaos is that dumb?

Yes. Chaos's most defining character feature in Hades is their inability to properly understand their creations and how they've developed and evolved apart from them. Chaos couldn't comprehend deceit or ill intent before Chronos manipulated them, in part because everyone who's ever meaningfully interacted with Chaos prior have been completely earnest, and Chaos didn't expect any different from a new visitor.

Just because Chaos is the one who created all life does not mean that Chaos is psychic, omniscient, or all-powerful. Chaos's entire character pointedly subverts this idea of an all-powerful creator-being. Chaos is basically a puzzled scientist who doesn't quite understand anything about the grand experiment they've run, but is observing it anyway out of curiosity.

[rhabdophobia]

I think the problem is the "I literally can't die" argument you're suggesting Melinoe use on Scylla/Polyphemus wouldn't convince them to stop fighting her anyway lol. If it did, Scylla'd probably give up after "killing" Melinoe once and then watching her come back to try again anyway. Polyphemus is just stubborn, I think. He's already pretty aware that he can't kill a god-like being, but he could still very well eat one, even if they'll eventually just reform out of his waste anyway (kinda gross lol), worst case scenario for him is that he gets a nice nap, so he has no reason to try.

I think Melinoe already understands to an extent that they won't be reasonable, from the way Scylla casually dismisses accusations of drowning and murdering people to how Polyphemus bluntly responds to any attempt with some variation "Yeah, but I wanna fight anyway." It's pointless to try to reason with them, but she can at least banter with them.