hades 2, complexity for complexity's sake

[Herozen]

let me start off by saying i don't hate the game. anything in the modern day that treats greek mythology with a pinch of respect and nuance has my love.

however, i do feel the game is trying way too hard to add layers and layers of complexity to it's gameplay for no real reason outside of having it.

what i feel made the original hades great (aside from the godtier story and writing) was how simple everything was at it's core. each weapon generally did 2 things, sometimes 3 if you're being spesific. zag had his dash, his cast, and that was it. and all the gods did was modify those core parts of the kit. so you can easily think "hmm, i need a way to clear rooms quicker, i'll put X god on my Y, that should work" and 9/10 times it did. even the resources were easy to understand
fish: chef
gems/diamonds: house upgrades
darkness/keys: mirror
blood: weapons
nectar/ambrosia: the things you wanna smash

at it's core, hades was simple, and thats what i believe helped lead to it's major popularity. how easy it was for people who even had 0 experiance with roguelites to understand.

now look at hades 2
each weapon has 4 attacks MINIMUM.
cast has now been split into 2 different types
new sprint mechanic which honestly hurts me more than it helps due to hades 1 muscle memory
entirely new magic system with it's own resource to manage
replaces simple to use mirror of night with new tarot system, which on top of is a lot more visually confusing than the mirror has a separate cap on it that you need to work to pay for so you can use the cards you're already paying for
resources going everywhere all at once. you need a resource for the pot, the trader, your cards and you'll often only realise this when you've spent it on something else
calls, once a simple "push X for god help" effect is now it's entirely own set of boons with a confusing tree to try and push through
boons now have elements tied to them which i still don't understand (how exactly does a boon from the goddess of hearth and fire, have water tied to it?)

i feel like half of these were added JUST for the sake of adding complexity to an already complex system

one of my favourite parts of hades 1 was that there was complexity inside it. so that the minmaxing hypernerds can construct the most insane builds possible to beat max heat in 3 minutes if they want. but a regular person like me can also just grab whatever boons look cool in the moment with the cool weapon i like and go blitz my way through the underworld fueled by "screw you dad" energy.

hades 2 feels like it's forcing the player to become one of those minmaxing hypernerds JUST to play it

[Herozen]

and just to stop the mouthbreathers before they start. no. turning on godmode is NOT a fix to this

[Neferneith]

I agree with the observation but not the conclusion.
H2 being an iteration of H1, it is expected to have more. You mastered the systems of H1, that's some brain time available to understand H2 systems.

That said, the ressources collectibles (ash, souls, fishes, plants) are a bit to numerous. I don't chase them, I just upgrade what is flashing. Maybe not the best system.
I don't think the elements of god boons (Earth, fire air etc..) is interesting in the current state.

Apart from this two points, It would have been a let down to NOT HAVE new systems in H2.

[★Miko]

Well, this isn't Hades 1 dlc. And you can always play Hades 1.

[Neo NiGHTS ®]

Hhmmm... Well, I see and understand your points. While I agree with some, others I don't see as entirely true.

- The gameplay mechanics: only one thing as added which was the Cast.
The Omegas and Sprint just require you to hold down a button, which is hardly "complex".
And the Summons were substituted by Selene. Also you don't even have to use Selene, so that LT button you can completely forget if you want;

- The Arcanas x The Mirror: yes, they are a little bit more complex, but I think that's more of a bad UI than a complex system.
The cards are more in-line with the game and adds a bit more of customization which is an welcome thing.
Also you have to deal with that once, if you want. Just take the cards you enjoy more and never think about them again;

- The new resources: personally I don't mind them, but that was an unnecessary change.
I don't think they add complexity since you have to collect them all anyway, but it wasn't needed.


All the other things are pretty much the same. Boons, hammers, dialogues, side quests etc.
Some changes were to be expected like new boons to returning gods, but it would be too boring if everything was the same.
In that case it's not getting more complex, just different.

Overall what I think the game suffers is some bad UI (see Arcanas) and wording sometimes you have to read a lot of times to understand what something does.
And that I think may give you the impression that the game is harder to understand than it actually is.

[Christ Goodbye]

Bro 13 hours in h2 after i don't know how many houndreds in h1 and you complain about not understanding the mechanics? Chill and give yourself time to learn the friggin game.

[Koala 4peace]

Originally posted by Neferneith:

I agree with the observation but not the conclusion.
H2 being an iteration of H1, it is expected to have more. You mastered the systems of H1, that's some brain time available to understand H2 systems.

That said, the ressources collectibles (ash, souls, fishes, plants) are a bit to numerous. I don't chase them, I just upgrade what is flashing. Maybe not the best system.
I don't think the elements of god boons (Earth, fire air etc..) is interesting in the current state.

Apart from this two points, It would have been a let down to NOT HAVE new systems in H2.

I kind of agree with this.

As a personal note I would add that visual clarity need to be improved, which I imagine is already on the way. Failing that, at least give the normal attacks the ability to delete lesser projectiles like in 1.

[Marthzie]

To be fair if you like Hades 1 being more linear I'd say play that or simplify this game for yourself. This game is meant to make a focal point on certain builds to express the players own creativity. If you like Selune go with her and partially into your Gods/If you like the Gods modify the Gods you like and add on a weapon amplifier/If you like weapons build towards the weapon and use Selune/Gods as additive.

You can get as complicated as you want or not. Yes this game is min/max heaven, but also I have not needed to min max anything and just choose random boons to experiment most of the time and I do have my favorites. Yeah this game is a grind for upgrading weapons and such so that part does suck to some degree, but early access made it VERY easy to get resources and it's been out over a year.

I think the main thing is that people just wanted hades 1.5 and not Hades 2 on steroids. Anyhow, to say this game is much harder than Hades is insane because this game is so much easier lol.

[Fire walk with me]

Originally posted by Marthzie:

it's been out over a year.

We aren't quite there yet. Game dropped May 6th. Definitely ballpark though.

Sequels can be divisive. Luckily nothing is stopping anyone from enjoying the first one if they aren't a fan of this one.

[Mr.Horakhty]

I don't find them too complex at all, it sounds like you just finished the first game and wanted more, now you are pissed because this is not Hades 1. Your ass just got kicked but instead of giving it time or trying to learn/get better at the game you are just rambling here.

It's a new game and I am glad it has new mechanics. If it is too complex for you maybe play something else.

[Herozen]

a lot of people here seem to be jumping to the conclusion that i'm against the idea of having ANYTHING new in hades 2 compared to hades 1. that is not what i'm saying. i'm saying that a lot of the new additions seem to be making themselves needlessly complex for 0 reason.

[Herozen]

Originally posted by Christ Goodbye:

Bro 13 hours in h2 after i don't know how many houndreds in h1 and you complain about not understanding the mechanics? Chill and give yourself time to learn the friggin game.

ahh yes, how could i have forgotten. you're not allowed to have opinions on things unless you sell your soul to it and spend 4k hours stress testing every pixel of the game across 4 accounts and a samsung smart fridge

[Specific Beef]

Nah, disagree. Hades I's entire longevity was down to the versatility of the system, which was by no means simple. I know of at least one YouTube channel that was (and is) devoted to finding the unexpected effects of different builds, and that's what this complexity extends.

Once you have a feel for how the system works, you can exploit that knowledge to create dozens of awesome, share-worthy builds. Now, I have to admit I don't love some of the ways the devs have nailed down some of this — imo, they should allow people to find and use the most amusingly broken builds, given that nothing is guaranteed in this game and there's every chance the player fails to construct the exact recipe — but ofc it's their game and if they want to curtail certain excesses than that's up to them. There's still plenty in there to provide a lot of extra fun on top of the core game and story.

[Neferneith]

Originally posted by Herozen:

Originally posted by Christ Goodbye:

Bro 13 hours in h2 after i don't know how many houndreds in h1 and you complain about not understanding the mechanics? Chill and give yourself time to learn the friggin game.

ahh yes, how could i have forgotten. you're not allowed to have opinions on things unless you sell your soul to it and spend 4k hours stress testing every pixel of the game across 4 accounts and a samsung smart fridge

He didn't say that. He said that 13 hours is a bit short to gauge the complexity depth of a game. Hades 2 is playable for a good chunk of time by just diving into action and not spending time in the Crossroads for meta progression. You can choose to upgrade once you are stuck.

I see in your profile that you mastered RoR2 and are an avid player of Unnamed Space Idle. I would guess that both games took some time to grasp and ten times more to fully understand. But you can play and enjoy without being an expert for quite some time.

It was the same for all SGG I played so far. (Not to say that certain aspects of Hades 2 shouldn't be simplified)

[Neo NiGHTS ®]

Originally posted by Herozen:

Originally posted by Christ Goodbye:

Bro 13 hours in h2 after i don't know how many houndreds in h1 and you complain about not understanding the mechanics? Chill and give yourself time to learn the friggin game.

ahh yes, how could i have forgotten. you're not allowed to have opinions on things unless you sell your soul to it and spend 4k hours stress testing every pixel of the game across 4 accounts and a samsung smart fridge

Of course you can have an opinion.

But what you are going through right now is the process of adaptation to the new mechanics.

I like to say that Hades 2 has enough similarities for old comers pick up and play, but enough differences to make the game its own thing.

Now you are hitting the wall where Hades 2 is different from the first game. And that's OK. We have all being through that. Some people went through that more easily than others, but that's a completely normal process.

Once you get it, everything will feel completely natural, just like Hades 1 did.


Like I said: the game unfortunately does a bad job explaining some of the new things which gives the impression of more complexity.

If you are having trouble understanding some of the mechanics, wants hints and tips, the community will be more than glad to help.

[Breathe]

Valid feedback for devs, in terms of player pool Hades 1 would be a big part of what you want to draw from and presumably open it up to new segments of a player base. Personally I’ve loved the experience of exploring and learning the systems of Hades 2 but not everyone is going to want to do that, in fact assuming they want a large casual player base it makes sense to make the game as approachable as possible, to make systems intuitive, to (as Neo pointed out) have good UI for various systems and I’d add a good overall UX (for all the non-combat core mechanic systems), a bad UX for me at the moment is pretty much all gathering, especially fishing, I just skip it because I’m too impatient.

To put the bad (post patch) Arcana UI aside for a second and focus on complexity as OP pointed out, is Selena’s system actually “good”? Why do we need a path of stars and to decide between upgrades on a path for what is generally incremental and learn about all of the Hex stuff? My experience with Selene was I got caught up in the mystery of it and was excited about the difference then learned to always favour Hermes and never use her then eventually come back to her in some niche situations with some builds. The excitement wore off quickly when I did use path of stars at the expense of other boons to unlock something kinda meh. She still narratively is interesting though and she’s always kind but still mysterious and feels unique as a character, there is so much to love about her and keep but I don’t know that her current hexes and the path enhance the game or are as simple as they could be.
I think it’s fair to consider where some complexity could be stripped out, particularly with the number of resources and gathering as has been brought up numerous times.
To give a contrasting example, pets. Feels good, gives a buff, mostly set and forget, if you want to dig deeper, do trials and level/explore. If you don’t, equip and go. Arcana is superior IMHO to the mirror because there’s variety and trade-offs and nuance, but sure the game could offer some set combos or find a way to not overwhelm players with choices but I would argue it does a pretty good job of this for casuals by limiting ash and grasp initially. One thing which springs to mind is trials, these could be telegraphed more as pretty much tutorials AND challenges. They allow you to explore a build without having to actually build it up, they let you level keepsakes, work with different pets, and get early exposure to fear.