Blessing of Strife

[baka-san]

I'm re-playing the early access again for the 3rd time. I restart from the beginning each time. Can you seriously remove this stupid punishment for being good (average?) at the game? So in the future when I play, every time I start a new file, I'm going to have to deal with this?

[Neo NiGHTS ®]

The thing is: the game is intended to be played in a certain way, the story is supposed to be properly develop within a certain window (number of tries).

If you brake that window, you'll lose part of the experience by rushing the story, breaking the pace of which each story is told.

It's pretty much like film directors making a film to be watched in a certain way, but then people have to rush, watch it 2x speed and breaks all the effort said director put in that film.

I've done that myself in Hades and it was weird.
(although I had had the whole proper experience before. Rushing the game was just a personal challenge I tried to do)

However, Eris doesn't really stop you. She hinders you.
If you are good enough you'll manage to rush through the game anyway.

[Fire walk with me]

I have watched someone do a run in Hades 1 with a vanilla save file and they cleared it. I think you get a one time special bit of dialogue, but I think very few people actually can pull it off because steady progress is the average expectation. I am sure someone will do it eventually (if not already), but just enjoy the ride. Unless you are the type to run full fear with zero arcana I believe even people with hundreds of wins will still struggle going back to zero upgrades with a fresh start file when 1.0 releases. Mind you progress should be retained, but I know many of us are planning fresh files at launch.

[Crater]

Originally posted by Neo NiGHTS ®:

The thing is: the game is intended to be played in a certain way, the story is supposed to be properly develop within a certain window (number of tries).

If you brake that window, you'll lose part of the experience by rushing the story, breaking the pace of which each story is told.

It's pretty much like film directors making a film to be watched in a certain way, but then people have to rush, watch it 2x speed and breaks all the effort said director put in that film.

I've done that myself in Hades and it was weird.
(although I had had the whole proper experience before. Rushing the game was just a personal challenge I tried to do)

However, Eris doesn't really stop you. She hinders you.
If you are good enough you'll manage to rush through the game anyway.

The thing is, while I agree with you that a dev can have an intended way to play the game in order to get story content across to the audience, your solution is faulty for 2 reasons

1) If the goal is to experience more particular dialogue / interactions before finally beating Chronos, the much simpler way would be to force-end a run. It really isn't hard to concoct a narrative reason why this might occur (say Boss 1 win on run 1>return home, boss 2 win on run 2>return home) etc. Instead of adding artificial arbitrary limits that's telling me I'm "not meant" to be here yet - okay, just cut the run then.

2) By your logic strife should appear randomly throughout random runs, because there's a *LOT* of dialogue that is locked behind losing a run that you'll never hear if you're winning all the time (i.e. say you first defeat Chronos on run 10 and never again lose - there's probably hundreds of dialogues you'll never hear).

[EgoSonic]

Eris' impediment of early wins is genius with it not just being a mechanic meant to hold you back for a few runs in order to tell the larger story (and avoid breaking some interactions or dialog) but it is also the introduction to the character that you face later on the surface / meet at the hideout.
They have interactions about it, you first understand that not every Cthonic being is necessarily on your side (though Eris is on no one's side, apparently) and that there are other forces at play, and it's a testimony to Chronos reach and power.

Cutting it out entirely takes away from the narrative AND Eris' story.

[Neo NiGHTS ®]

Originally posted by Fire walk with me:

I have watched someone do a run in Hades 1 with a vanilla save file and they cleared it. I think you get a one time special bit of dialogue, but I think very few people actually can pull it off because steady progress is the average expectation. I am sure someone will do it eventually (if not already), but just enjoy the ride. Unless you are the type to run full fear with zero arcana I believe even people with hundreds of wins will still struggle going back to zero upgrades with a fresh start file when 1.0 releases. Mind you progress should be retained, but I know many of us are planning fresh files at launch.

You've probably watched a reaction video where the devs saw a guy beating the game on the very first run.
That same video inspired me to try to do the same and... I actually managed to do it LOL

Then I pushed further to see how quickly I could make Persephone go back home. It's needed to beat Hades 10 times and I think I've managed to get Persephone within 12 runs or so (less than 15 for sure).

After that you had to do a bunch of more runs to get the "true ending" where she and Hades tells the story to the whole family and set their dispute.

It was REALLY weird then to see how that completely broke the narrative. While the dialogues kept up with the most important events, sometimes they would "go back in time" to tell the story and everything felt obviously off.

Which means: while you CAN do it, doesn't mean you should do it hahahah

[Neo NiGHTS ®]

Originally posted by Crater:

The thing is, while I agree with you that a dev can have an intended way to play the game in order to get story content across to the audience, your solution is faulty for 2 reasons

1) If the goal is to experience more particular dialogue / interactions before finally beating Chronos, the much simpler way would be to force-end a run. It really isn't hard to concoct a narrative reason why this might occur (say Boss 1 win on run 1>return home, boss 2 win on run 2>return home) etc. Instead of adding artificial arbitrary limits that's telling me I'm "not meant" to be here yet - okay, just cut the run then.

2) By your logic strife should appear randomly throughout random runs, because there's a *LOT* of dialogue that is locked behind losing a run that you'll never hear if you're winning all the time (i.e. say you first defeat Chronos on run 10 and never again lose - there's probably hundreds of dialogues you'll never hear).

Thanks for saying "your solution" as if I was the one who added Eris in the first place. Unfortunately, I have no saying whatsoever in what goes and doesn't go into the game 😅
I've spoken what *seems* to be the reason Eris was added to hinder a little bit the progress.


With that said:

1) Sure, the devs could have used a hard limit, actually forcing you to fail each run. That would be the easy way.
But why?
Like I said, Eris is just an obstacle that won't impede better players to rush through the game.

In my opinion, she's a good middle ground of not having anything at all, like in the first game, or adding a hard barrier like you suggested;

2) Well, THAT would be a nice idea! Make her random. Why not? That would be completely in character.
Seriously, I'm not being sarcastic.
Maybe that even crossed the minds of people at SGG but for some reason (player predictability?) decided to put her in Erebus.


Still, feel free to disagree. Again, I'm just saying what's the probable reason behind her.

[Crater]

Originally posted by Neo NiGHTS ®:

Originally posted by Crater:

The thing is, while I agree with you that a dev can have an intended way to play the game in order to get story content across to the audience, your solution is faulty for 2 reasons

1) If the goal is to experience more particular dialogue / interactions before finally beating Chronos, the much simpler way would be to force-end a run. It really isn't hard to concoct a narrative reason why this might occur (say Boss 1 win on run 1>return home, boss 2 win on run 2>return home) etc. Instead of adding artificial arbitrary limits that's telling me I'm "not meant" to be here yet - okay, just cut the run then.

2) By your logic strife should appear randomly throughout random runs, because there's a *LOT* of dialogue that is locked behind losing a run that you'll never hear if you're winning all the time (i.e. say you first defeat Chronos on run 10 and never again lose - there's probably hundreds of dialogues you'll never hear).

Thanks for saying "your solution" as if I was the one who added Eris in the first place. Unfortunately, I have no saying whatsoever in what goes and doesn't go into the game 😅
I've spoken what *seems* to be the reason Eris was added to hinder a little bit the progress.


With that said:

1) Sure, the devs could have used a hard limit, actually forcing you to fail each run. That would be the easy way.
But why?
Like I said, Eris is just an obstacle that won't impede better players to rush through the game.

In my opinion, she's a good middle ground of not having anything at all, like in the first game, or adding a hard barrier like you suggested;

2) Well, THAT would be a nice idea! Make her random. Why not? That would be completely in character.
Seriously, I'm not being sarcastic.
Maybe that even crossed the minds of people at SGG but for some reason (player predictability?) decided to put her in Erebus.


Still, feel free to disagree. Again, I'm just saying what's the probable reason behind her.

I meant your solution as in your proposed explanation. You read way too much into that

1) Why? Because as I spelled out, if the goal is to actually keep you from Chronos for narrative reasons (which was your claim, and I'm not even saying it's wrong), then just put a hard cap on the run and be done with it.

2) If you think that's a good idea I don't even have a response for you.

[Christ Goodbye]

Eris actually rewards you for being good .But she's the goddess of discord remember?Discordant bell , her keepsake gives you damage but you also take damage.
You beat Hecate ? You get 20x ashes the first 2 times
After that...
Beat the Sirens? You get 50x (don't remember the name) that allows you to increase grasp
And it goes on.
I've done a lot of fresh save files and i love the way they crafted the first nights. I can most of the times kill Kronos night 2 and managed to go phase 2 in night 1 . Going back to Hades 1 , if i had to choose between h1 or h2 what game i would enjoy more doing a fresh run?
H2 hands down , cause yes you take way more damage in H2 but also... Melinoe night 1 is WAY stronger than Zag night 1. And if you manage to get atleast to the sirens , on night 2 you are like 3 times better than zag night 2.
IMPORTANT EDIT:
I completely forgot to mention 1 big thing.
The Underworld is the Easy run , if you don't have the blessing from Eris the game would be a complete breeze.
Hades 1 doesn't have 2 different runs , so there was no need for something to "make you struggle" a bit .
IMO that's also a reason why you get that blessing in the beginning.

[Neo NiGHTS ®]

Originally posted by Crater:

I meant your solution as in your proposed explanation. You read way too much into that

1) Why? Because as I spelled out, if the goal is to actually keep you from Chronos for narrative reasons (which was your claim, and I'm not even saying it's wrong), then just put a hard cap on the run and be done with it.

2) If you think that's a good idea I don't even have a response for you.

1) Yes, I understand what you said. And I agreed with you that that was a very viable option as well.
I'm just reasoning that, maybe, the devs thought Eris could be a middle ground.

2) Oh! So YOU were being sarcastic and I fell for that 😅

You're shooting the messenger here.

Like I said, I'm not offering any judgment. You are not the first one unhappy with Eris. I understand your point.

I'm just doing the devil's advocate here. You don't have to agree, I'm not trying to change your opinion. I'm just reasoning. That's all.