Unexplained instant death attacks are bad game design

[Princerunner]

Finally got a run that was more than strong enough to handle Chronos after 18 hours, and the first stage was easy enough but I nearly instantly lost my first life (of 2) on stage 2 by the stand in the circle or die thing. I almost managed to beat him afterwards, but I just didn't know his patterns well enough.

I had reached stage 2 two times before, but I died so fast that I didn't see that attack (or maybe I did but didn't register it). If it was a regular game with continues it wouldn't have been an issue since I would just lose sub 5 minutes of progress, but here it's a minimum of 30 minutes to try again and I'm not all that good so I most likely need to spend 2-6 hours to get a run that's strong enough for me to beat Chronos.

In games like The Binding of Isaac or Enter the Gungeon the "final" bosses can be quite hard, but they allows you actually learn the bosses while you fight them. This is basically a worse version of Yunalesca in Final Fantasy X, and I though that took the cake for unfairness in otherwise fair games.

For reference I managed to beat Hades in Hades after 6 or so tries, so I'm not amazingly bad generally.

[dustin1280]

-=MM=-Savage の投稿を引用：

Anytime someone leads with "X is just bad game design" I know to treat them completely unseriously.

This is true basically 99% of the time.

[Eizo]

I agree that second stage Chronos has some attacks that are hard to read/understand, on top of alot of spam (visual clutter). Took me a few tries just to figure out what was killing me.

[Neo NiGHTS ®]

I've killed Chronos over a dozen times already and I still dislike fighting him. His insta-kill moves and lots of visual clutter (and things get worse when he starts summoning his minions which can paralyse you when killed) are really annoying.

Hades could be really challenging but at least you knew what was going on there.

[daermoriel]

As a darksouls and other souls-like fan, I would argue that high difficulty endgame material is not unreasonable. All bosses and enemies in the game telegraph their moves if you watch for them. Attack patterns are predictable enough that off-screen activity isn't necessarily a game-ender. Take your time to experience the battles and improve your skills. Unlock the different weapons, keepsakes, and incantations. Build your relationships. Learn to strategically develop your build until you can do it.
This is a game to savour, not rush through and discard.

Anyone that feels the need to announce that they are "not amazingly bad generally" should take some time to reflect upon whether they are being fair to the game in their complaint, or just wanting an easy mode in a game about strategy and skill.

[Neon Black Interactive]

Quag-kun の投稿を引用：

First time I died to it I legit thought that there was a plot reason and that I would make an invocation or something for it

I thought the same thing, I didn't realize you could survive that attack until I made it there with a death defy and assumed you needed some sort of meta progression to protect against it. I think what really made me think that is he does it immediately at the start of phase 2.

[rick432656]

Just do it like stellar blade where there is pop up saying bosses can now do instant kill attacks and how to dodge it. It was only obvious to me because I had just recently finished stellar blade which had bosses with similar instant kill attacks towards the end
that you had to do certain things to not die instantly

[Morton Koopa Jr.]

If anything, the color coding could be adjusted. The final boss is a yellow golden mess as it is.

The last thing we need is a tutorial insert to spell out to the player on how to dodge and attack when it's always explained visually how to do so.

[Sir_Noob]

There is a lot of valid complaints about the Chronos fight, but the instakill move is very well telegraphed with the area to go to literally glowing while everything else dims. You'd have to be blind or stupid to miss what to do. That being said, the adds in the fight can ruin a run by dropping a time field on it when they die right before he does the attack, which is a valid complaint

[Maryskowo]

I might be wrong but there is text to run towards light spot on the clock when you start 2nd phase. I've dodged instant kill move on my 1st encounter with him. I think it depends on people intuitions towards environment and changes. Annoying isn't difficult. Big windows for free dmg. I have more trouble dodging his normal attacks than anything else - specially if you add 40% speed fear.
I recommend you trying to use Moros keepsake. Huge help for 2nd phase and for overall last zone when running high fear. The truth is if you don't want to try out to find good builds yourself you can always check them out online.

[Mixed Herbs]

I agree one taps are usually BS in games unless well telegraphed which his move could be argued to have a bit more leniency but it's honestly fine. This is also the kind of the game where death doesn't really mean much and is part of the intended experience. It can be frustrating to lose a run or life but it's not really the end of the world, you know now how to avoid it. Maybe bringing you down to 1hp would be better though. This definitely sounds like a salt induced post.

[Blue Sock Puppet]

I've had a few runs where he summons the safe spot right on himself so it's a bit obscured with everything else glowing.

That shouldn't be happening. Otherwise it's fine; adds a bit of tension at first.

If Chronos is intentionally overtuned it doesn't really feel that way. Maybe for melee builds though.

I'm beating him consistently on 20+ heat now.

[Silyon]

daermoriel の投稿を引用：

Anyone that feels the need to announce that they are "not amazingly bad generally" should take some time to reflect upon whether they are being fair to the game in their complaint, or just wanting an easy mode in a game about strategy and skill.

Best part is, the game accounts for this! Front and center in the options menu is a box you can tick for "God Mode". Which does exactly what the name implies, makes it incredibly hard to lose any run regardless of skill level and is meant for those that want an easier time in the game or to merely experience the story.

Any complaints of difficulty are bunk when such an option exists.

[Travis Touchdown]

I can totally understand why some players find the readability of his instakill (or the closest thing to it) a bit hard to parse. Yes, I am in the group of "hardcore" gamers that understand the well-trod ludic and visual language of AoE markers during a charge up, but I understand why it would be frustrating for new players.

To be honest, I think all you would need to ease the readability for more casual or new players is have something during Chronos' transition that resembles his instakill attack. Like if his transition to phase 2 involved him like "destroying" the previous version of the level with a cutscene transition attack that looked like his instakill where there's a longer charge up with the outside of what will become the phase 2 fight arena darkened and then blasted away, so to speak.

It's a lot of work just for readability, but I think it would go a long way to ease frustrations for a lot of players.

It's also possible that it's just an EA thing and the instakill won't even be a normal part of his moveset in full release. It may be an EM-type thing.

[Niccolo']

most people seem to concur that some moves need to be telegraphed more. think it's a valid take, and the game is just in early access first patch. lot of room to improve, here.

but you can also argue that since the game is based on repetitive loops, even without telegraphing a player will eventually learn how to deal with them anyway, and this *may* be intended and worthy of consideration.

[daermoriel]

Silyon の投稿を引用：

daermoriel の投稿を引用：

Anyone that feels the need to announce that they are "not amazingly bad generally" should take some time to reflect upon whether they are being fair to the game in their complaint, or just wanting an easy mode in a game about strategy and skill.

Best part is, the game accounts for this! Front and center in the options menu is a box you can tick for "God Mode". Which does exactly what the name implies, makes it incredibly hard to lose any run regardless of skill level and is meant for those that want an easier time in the game or to merely experience the story.

Any complaints of difficulty are bunk when such an option exists.

Good point. I don't use it, and actually forgot it existed when I was posting. XD